Rampant Gaming!

[daringly]

I loved the classic "dungeon crawl" games like Wiz 8, some of the Ultima games, and even "Swords and Sorcery" (I think that was the name)

Wiz 8 was the best of the genre, and that's now 7 years old. Are there any other games like that out?

[Coyote]

Eschalon: Book 1 has a lot of that 'old school feel.' It's a single-player, third-person perspective, turn-based RPG.

You may also want to look at the games by Spiderweb Software.

There are some games in development that are inspired by those kinds of games. My own Frayed Knights - while still needing a LOT of work and quite a ways from release - draws a lot of its inspiration (and fodder for parody) from those games. I think it's going to get a lot more Wizardry 8 influence than I originally intended by the time it is done. Iron Tower's upcoming game, Age of Decadence, is inspired more by old-school RPGs than the newer brands. And there's the upcoming sequel to Eschalon Book 1, called, mysteriously, Eschalon Book 2.

I would kill for a really high-quality game in the style of Ultima 7, while we're at it...
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Rampant Games
Games With Personality!

[delve]

[DGM]

[Coyote]

I was gonna ask Daringly a similar question with his original post.

What captures the fundamental "Ultima 7-ness" for me?

Sadly enough, much of it is graphics-based... but the presentation in U7 was part of the charm for me:

* The top-down angled view

* The attention to detail in graphics with things like weather, or the shadow of clouds passing over the land.

* The attention to detail PERIOD (yes, hard to do even with a mainstream budget)

* A contiguous world that was full of stuff to do / explore EVERYWHERE. There weren't a lot of places you could go - to my memory - where there wasn't SOMETHING interesting somewhere on the screen.

* AI on schedules providing an illusion of daily activity (kudos to Oblivion for doing the same).

* Rich dialogs guided by keywords rather than strict trees

* Interesting characters

* A gazillion items in the game

* The inventory system. Oh, it was a total chaotic mess and impossible to find what you needed, but I still dug the whole rummaging-around-in-the-pack feel.

* A plot that, like its two predecessors, really touched on human issues.

* A really awesome villain that you got to know and personally loathe through the entire game.

* Sub-plots that were fascinating, self-contained stories in their own right.

* Tons of interactivity, including things like crafting.

Yeah, other games have come close. Baldur's Gate II exceeded U7 in many categories, and I could see that Oblivion was striving for many of the same goals. But they didn't quite have the same charge. BG2 felt a little TOO scripted and static. And Oblivion felt too empty and random.

At least that's what comes to my mind when I think about U7. Granted, I haven't played the full game through in years, so there's a real danger of rose-tinted glass filters taking place here, though I have poked around in Exult a bit.
_________________
Rampant Games
Games With Personality!

[DGM]

Geez, you don't ask for much do you?

I was sort of expecting a short list of essentials. Your list doesn't sound very feasible for an indie, at least not until procedural content generation makes some considerable strides. Guess that explains why you don't just make it yourself.

[daringly]

I never played Ultima VII, so I can't comment.

I've played a bit of Eschalon Book I Demo. The game has a lot of things going for it, but there are a few shortcomings that make it lack "the hook".

1. the interface is slightly clunky. Don't make me struggle to find a door. If I click inside a room that needs to cross the door, move me to the door, open the door, and get me there. Unless a new enemy pops or I get hit by something, of course. The "Diablo-style interface" is better - it takes less clicks, and makes me focus less on my mouse to do anything (compared to Eschalon's hold the mouse to keep moving).

2. You need to see some progress in your first hour. I've played the game about 3 hours, died a few times, and not leveled yet. I hear the character building is great later, but I don't have a taste.

3. I played a magic user. No starting spells. Ok, you can get those 30 minutes into the game. 1 anyway. And you're not sure if it's a scroll or a "classic spell" that is recastable. If you want a player to be hooked on the magic system, start him with a spell scroll in the opening room (or some other class-specific item).

What did I like about wizardry 8?
1. Voice animations. Ok, it's silly. But these are high value added for the cost. There are about 20 different "personalities" in the game. Each says different things at certain points (and some randomly).
2. The character development. Skill based was gradual, but you felt like you were accomplishing something even in trivial fights.
3. Good ratio of money supply/demand. Money was always good to have, but not impossible to come by.
4. Clever. Dungeons required thinking (to solve, or minimize damage).
5. Graphics. Graphics were good, , but I'd rather sacrifice high-end graphics than gameplay.
6. Strategic diversity of your character party. Want 3 Warriors, a priest and 2 wizzes? That works. Want 1 ninja only? Fine. Or a potpourri... There were lots of ways to build your party that would work.
7. Options in character development. Wizard - where do you focus your magic? Fire? Ice? IDing stuff? Every character had relevant options to focus skill building.

There was a lot else I liked about Wiz 8, but those were some of the high points.

[delve]

I'll second the Wiz8 points about character development and party balance. That's one thing to be said for auto-scaled difficulty, it makes it slightly easier to get by with a sub-optimal party build. I'm rather partial to skill based growth systems, and growth-through-use especially.

The graphics in Wiz 8 seem to be right about at my sweet spot. Not too chunky or cartoony and lightweight enough to run well on most systems. Graphics slightly worse that Wiz8 would probably distract me from getting into the game. Better is fine (if it performs alright), but unnecessary.

One thing that I feel obliged to point out is the plot. Standard amulet/foozle fare, but they did it well enough with some interesting and fleshy (rather than skeletal afterthoughts) side plots and plenty of semi- or seriously hidden tidbits to find. Like the zip gun and the secret dungeons. And the bank, man I love the Arnika bank. There's just so much to do there. It's a testament to the value of cliche plots. Done poorly or tacked on at the last minute and they're just fluffy worthless window dressing. But done well they can be engaging and interesting without losing thier easy to grasp familiarity.

WRT Eschalon, I will second the interface point. It also has loopholes that make the game downright easy if you know the tricks. Yes, the interface is full of exploitable loopholes, not the mechanics, not implementation bugs. :O As for the other two points, I didn't notice them. I felt like I was making decent progress early on. It slowed down somewhat once I started trudging back and forth across the world on sidequests (and before I got hold of decent teleporting capabilities). And I think I got the first spell almost right away. But it could be a case of poor memory on my part since I played it a while ago.