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Monday, November 23, 2009
 
RPG Design: Experimenting With Initiative
This weekend I concluded long-running D&D campaign. We've been playing it for about three-and-a-half years. 3.5 edition of D&D, naturally. We normally alternate games so we only end up playing a little over twice a month, and then only for about three hours per session. It's tough having longer games when the majority of our group have children to take care of. So while not quite as impressive as it sounds, it was still a Big Game.

And we have a very big gaming group - ten players if everybody showed up, and that was only because we had to turn down a couple of friends who wanted to join the game later (which feels really, really sucky to do, I should add). Handling initiative for a large number of players is horrible. Third edition tried to streamline matters by removing the die roll every round. Taking the time to roll dice wasn't the killer - it was everything else associated with tracking who goes when.

With such a big group, players would end up chatting and spacing what was going on while waiting for their turn, and then find out that by the time their turn came around, the combat situation had changed and they'd have to re-figure everything out. Which made their turns take even longer. Which encouraged other players to chat and mentally check out while taking their turns. After all - with ten players, if each player takes only three minutes per turn, that's a half-hour waiting to get to do something. And that is not including the wait for the DM to resolve his side of things.

Jockeying for who would go next, with changing initiatives, also took place. You generally wanted the casters with the big area affect spells to go first, along with those casting "buffs," followed by the melee characters rushing in to mix it up. Even without the dice-rolling, initiative order would change in mid-combat, complicating things and sometimes confusing people. Including me!

Then there were all the times we'd lose track of who's turn it was. And as a DM - not being the most organized person in the world - I'd get distracted and forget to keep things moving along swiftly. It was a mess. Combats took forever.

I made an effort to streamline the initiative system, which was met with very reserved tolerance at first. I don't roll for each monster's initiative separately --- to save my own sanity, I have monsters with the same (or very similar) initiative modifier all go as a group. At most, the monsters end up broken up into three initiative groups.

What I gradually came to realize is that what order you went within your party was largely cooperative and unimportant. What was important was whether or not you got to go before your enemies.

So I decided to put players into initiative "groups" as well. Against one unified group of monsters, the party would be divided into "group one" and "group two." Then, within the players' initiative groups, I let them decide among themselves who is going first. At first, we worried that this would slow things down, as deciding order could turn into a lengthy debate.

In practice, this was not the case at all. I estimate that this sped up combat by about 20% or so. While not a complete revolution, it's a substantial improvement. The increased speed seemed consistent across all character levels. I wouldn't have believed that the transition of turns was actually taking that long - but in our group, it was.

Secondly - and perhaps most importantly - it helped keep the entire group engaged in what was happening in the game. Since it's possible to go at any time during your group's initiative, players stay more involved and attentive to what's going on in the combat. Actions get taken as players are ready to go. They discuss their battle plans as they go with each other a lot more. They get to work tactically much better together. Without increasing the difficulty at all, it increased the number of interesting decisions players could make.

Effectively, this system made combats much more fun. And that is always a big win. I don't know if it would work as well for significantly smaller groups. But for a large group, it was a game saver.

So would this work in computer RPGs? Well, the group-based, single-player RPG is something of a vanishing breed, though the indies and some companies like Atlus have really been bringing it back lately. Traditionally, these games still tend to go by the old "roll dice to determine your order" system. Would something like this be advantageous?

Probably not in the same way. After all, we're talking about only one player, and the computer can automate the turn transition extremely well (better than us poor humans). But - borrowing once again from wargames - would having initiative be more at a "group" level rather than individual level make combat more interesting?

Maybe the party pools together its initiative bonus (plus random dice rolls) to allow the player to select who in what order - when you absolutely, positively need to get protection from vampires up as fast as possible. In the D&D Miniatures game, the player winning initiative could move two characters - any two - first, with each player alternating movement. Deciding who moves when was not a complicated decision, but it was an interesting one. The order in which units are able to move is often just as important as what they do. It often dictates what they can do.

In the real world, in time-critical situations, the coordination and timing of individual actions is often critical to success. But due to the limitations of the user interface, you don't see much of that in single-player action-RPGs (or RTS games). While the reaction speed of the player, not the character, is usually the issue in these games, could something be done here as well?

Stuff to think about.

Have fun.

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Comments:
I thought it made things more interesting by making us part of a different subgroup pretty much every time. I ended up with some basic strategies that applied depending on who I shared an initiative round with. I also learned about not running into melee before the blasters had their turn. :)
 
I'm currently working on a SRPG which will have phase-based combat. Each character (including those controlled by AI players) chooses their actions for the upcoming block of time before-hand and then the computer simulates the results of those actions and shows the results.

It can lead to very complicated and chaotic situations and you have to build some AI into even the PCs in order to determine what they would do if they are unable to complete their "order" or if something unexpected happens. On the plus side, there's no waiting around while all the other players take their turns as all turns are played out simultaneously. I also like to think that it is slightly more representative of what a "real" combat situation would be like. Things getting a bit crazy and not everything goes to plan. People can still try and coordinate their actions by declaring that they will "wait x seconds and then..." or "wait until x has cast y and then..", but like I said, al sorts of unexpected things can happen in the mean-time.
 
I think it is cool that you have managed to streamline what seems an age old process. Initiative is something I am still experimenting with on the computer side. I have found some things that work a bit awkwardly, but have not quite had the revelation I have been looking for. Either I get it to work for movement, or I get it to work for actions, or I don't get it to work for both. It's like when we were kids on the teeter totter, if you mistakenly get balanced your feet can't touch the ground.

he he, I've got four kids, my wife just had a dream she was pregnant, you talked about D&Dr's with kids, and my word verification is "pregi". Is the ground getting closer to me? :)
 
Wow, two posts while I was typing.

@LachlanL: I have wanted to see a phase based SRPG for some time now. I look forward to seeing it.
 
Wow, 10 people in your gaming group, huh? My brother runs a D&D campaign with 9 players, and I find it unbearably slow and chaotic whenever I get the chance to attend. Like you said, combat rounds, or well, anything really, takes 15 minutes or more to resolve. That is not fun.

My gaming group of 14+ years was just 4 people - 3 players and a DM. We occasionally had up to 6 people, but usually just 4. It worked great. There were just enough people to have party variety and everything was resolved quickly with everyone staying involved, both with what was going on game-wise, and the back story of everyone else's characters.

We resolved combat initiative in a very similar way to your house rules. We only rolled initiative at the start of combat, with the highest roll on each side determining the winner. From there, the party and monster turns would bounce back and forth.

We were much more interested in roleplaying, so we weren't overly concerned with keeping perfect track of who's turn it was. We stated what we wanted our next action to be and the DM worked it into the combat. He was a master at improv and storytelling, so combat always turned out feeling fair, and most importantly, fun.

Going back to group size for a moment, a small group has a lot of benefits:
-It's easy for everyone to have a stand-out moment each game.
-Everyone gets in a couple of crowning moments of awesome per campaign with not a lot of effort on the DM's part.
-Easier to get everyone together for game sessions.
-The game is faster and more gets done per session.
-Much easier for the DM to tailor the adventures to the players in the group.
-Finally, you can have a more cohesive gaming group (i.e. all roleplayers, or all loot oriented, or all power gamers, etc.) ensuring a more satisfying game for everyone.

Of course, it is hard turning away friends from the table.
 
10 people?! Very cool!

I'm not sure how the initiative groups would work for a single player RPG with a small party but I've been daydreaming about one which features mass battles and units yet retains RPG-level character depth (that is, all the units have multiple stats and abilities). Initiative groups might work for such a beast because at a certain level the player probably wants to deal with N things, be they characters in a party-based NPC or party aggregates in some sort of Warhammer-style game.
 
NIS turn-based strategy games usually have a player turn, then an enemy turn, etc.. (Disgaea, Soul Eater, et al..)
 
I've been doing essentially this for the last year with my D&D group and won't go back. Players that win initiative get to go before the enemies, then all the enemies go on an average roll, then it's all the PCs (even the ones that went first), repeating.

At best, it leads to the PCs working out fun strategies to maximize tactical cooperation. At worst, it just means going around the table because nobody cares about the order for that fight (and going around the table is still faster than remembering an exact order).

One way you could port something like this to computer games would be to use a tactics/macro system like Dragon Age or, I believe, some of the more recent Final Fantasy releases. Populate the IF list with all the special abilities of the other PCs, and the THEN list with the PC's own abilities. The player could then, theoretically, control the special attacks of an entire party by knowing what the allies will try to chain off of his or her own attacks.
 
I can testify to it working with smaller groups, we've been doing it with 3-5 players for a while now. The way we usually manage it is everyone rolls initiative at the start, GM rolls a single initiative for all the monsters. People who beat or equal the monsters essentially get a bonus round (or the slow characters are penalised, if you prefer :), then it settles down to just alternating between the two groups.
Possibly a bit oversimplified but since our GM is very plot-focused and our gaming sessions relatively short it means we can still have challenging combats without getting too bogged down.
 
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