Thursday, October 01, 2009
What Is a Roguelike?
Inspired by this thread in the Rampant Games forums, I thought I'd ask a question, give it a lame answer of my own, and let the discussion begin.
What is a "roguelike?" And where can the roguelike genre be taken from here?
I'm not talking about the Wikipedia definition, though it's a good start. I've got a fairly broad definition, myself - a roguelike is an RPG (see my scientifically and syntactically and legally robust definition of an RPG here) with randomly generated geography and other content. But even that definition is awfully squishy.
One of the reasons for the continued popularity of roguelikes is that - escaping from the needs of an appealing GUI and sophisticated graphics, a lot of complexity can be added to the abstract world representation. Adding a new feature does not require the revision of 90 characters' animations. So roguelikes can go after a breadth of gameplay actions not seen in most other genres.
For some people, suggesting that a real-time game like Diablo (or the earlier Dungeon Hack, named after the roguelike Hack from which Nethack was derived and built with the real-time Eye of the Beholder engine) is a stoning offense. But if the shoe fits (or the foo ... does something)....
Some folks demand the ascii.
And some folks will deny that a roguelike is actually an RPG. This strikes me as a little silly, as Rogue was exactly an effort to emulate the pen-and-paper RPG experience on computer. But that's another story. But hey, that's why we're opening up the discussion here.
Ultimately, we're talking games inspired / derived from the original Rogue. There should be some kind of family resemblance in there somewhere. What does that mean to you?
There's the obvious children of Rogue - Nethack being the crown prince of the lot, with siblings Angbad and Adom also mining the same vein.
But then you have the incredibly complex monstrosity (and I mean that in a good way) that is Dwarf Fortress. It's about as roguelike in its presentation as one could ask... yet it shares little in common with the dungeon-delving RPG gameplay of its predecessors. That would kinda violate my loose definition of a roguelike above, yet I don't have the guts to call it out and declare it as not being a roguelike. I'd feel silly, and we can't have that.
And then you have something like Persona 3 - with a ginormous towering (literally) dungeon of randomly generated content. It's an RPG, certainly. It's got a mighty mega random-dungeon going on. Is it a roguelike?
Uh... there I go, feeling silly again. I don't wanna go there.
Rogue and its immediate descendants had you controlling only one adventurer (plus, sometimes, a pet). Does a game lose its roguishness if you instead control a party? What about a tribe of dwarves?
Must a game be turn-based to be a roguelike? (Oh, hey, the Persona games were turn-based...)
Must a game be single-player to be a roguelike?
Can we have 3D roguelikes? Or a non-tiled world?
We already have some non-fantasy based roguelikes. What other genres are ripe for roguelike exploration?
Is permadeath a necessary aspect of roguelikes?
Where are some other areas you could see the roguelikes pushing into? More strategy games? Sims? Sports games?
Labels: Game Design
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 6:00 AM (Permalink)
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Are there Rogue-likes where you control a party? What are they? That sounds like it might be fun.
Personally, I get bored pretty quickly with Rogue-like games. I think it's the lack of a story. I lose interest in my character unless there's a setting and a story where he can seem... real. (And it's hard to find randomly generated dungeons, where going up and then down a stairs gets you a whole new layout, as realistic.) But a party-based Rogue might be fun to play around with, especially if it has some minimal graphics (I can do ASCII, but I prefer not).
And, er, I have a hard time understanding how Dwarf Fortress could be considered a Rogue. But, admittedly, I only play the fortress side of it.
Personally, I get bored pretty quickly with Rogue-like games. I think it's the lack of a story. I lose interest in my character unless there's a setting and a story where he can seem... real. (And it's hard to find randomly generated dungeons, where going up and then down a stairs gets you a whole new layout, as realistic.) But a party-based Rogue might be fun to play around with, especially if it has some minimal graphics (I can do ASCII, but I prefer not).
And, er, I have a hard time understanding how Dwarf Fortress could be considered a Rogue. But, admittedly, I only play the fortress side of it.
To me a roguelike is
- RPG (as per your looseish definition)
- with procedurally generated content
- and permadeath
DF counts if you see your fortress as the avatar that can experience permadeath / RPG-ness :)
- RPG (as per your looseish definition)
- with procedurally generated content
- and permadeath
DF counts if you see your fortress as the avatar that can experience permadeath / RPG-ness :)
we can't even civilly agree on rec.games.roguelike.development on what a RL is :)
To me the primary requirements are
- permadeath
- random dungeons
- stats
- loss of save file on reload
these must be first tier gaming requirements and all 4 at the minimum, they are not periphery requirements.
DF is not an RL. Diablo is close but its not an RL (you dont loose your save games when you reload)
you can pare up and down different requirements that fit rogue exactly and still encompass tonnes of random games that are totally not roguelikes.
it doesn't need to be ascii
it doesn't need to be turn based
my roguelike is realtime graphical ascii ;)
some people will swear it has to have VI key bindings to be an RL. there are lots of claims as to what constitutes a roguelike.
I think you can put all the req's in a bottle and shake it up and say, must meet at least N of these...
nobody every agrees what an RL really is (hey, maybe its some of than intangible stuff called gameplay or the smell of a long worm being cooked with a fireball spell on level 8 so you can get a wormtooth crysknife)
To me the primary requirements are
- permadeath
- random dungeons
- stats
- loss of save file on reload
these must be first tier gaming requirements and all 4 at the minimum, they are not periphery requirements.
DF is not an RL. Diablo is close but its not an RL (you dont loose your save games when you reload)
you can pare up and down different requirements that fit rogue exactly and still encompass tonnes of random games that are totally not roguelikes.
it doesn't need to be ascii
it doesn't need to be turn based
my roguelike is realtime graphical ascii ;)
some people will swear it has to have VI key bindings to be an RL. there are lots of claims as to what constitutes a roguelike.
I think you can put all the req's in a bottle and shake it up and say, must meet at least N of these...
nobody every agrees what an RL really is (hey, maybe its some of than intangible stuff called gameplay or the smell of a long worm being cooked with a fireball spell on level 8 so you can get a wormtooth crysknife)
I tried the Roguelike game Nethack and didn't care for it too much. Many if not most of the roguelike qualifiers annoy me.
Randomly generated content is the devil! If the shards are too small then it seems like a randomly generated mess. If the shards are too big you get the more of the same feeling you get from pre-gen content without the pre-gen polish you can get.
On stories, trying to shoehorn randomly generated stories into your randomly generated dungeon is even worse and gets old quick like in Anarchy Online.
I prefer a good map editor. User generated content only has the TTP* (Time To....P...Piece of Anatomy) factor and can be as good as if not better than studio generated content. Studio map-packs are also good and with expansions can introduce new elements to content generation for user-gen maps.
ASCII is a nostalgic thing.
Turn-based with turn off more users than it draws. Hence the never ending death of turn-based.
Permadeath and save file deletion is something that should always be an option. Take Jagged Alliance 2 Wildfire for example. There is an option for disabling saving while in combat. Anything that alienates a user such as forced permadeath is one less copy sold and/or downloaded.
Stu, Diablo, or rather Diablo 2 rather does in fact meet all 4 of your requirements. It obviously has random dungeons and stats. Then, in Hardcore mode you have permadeath with no save file to speak of it 'kinda' meets the fourth requirement.
*I credit Steve with coining and/or sharing this term
Randomly generated content is the devil! If the shards are too small then it seems like a randomly generated mess. If the shards are too big you get the more of the same feeling you get from pre-gen content without the pre-gen polish you can get.
On stories, trying to shoehorn randomly generated stories into your randomly generated dungeon is even worse and gets old quick like in Anarchy Online.
I prefer a good map editor. User generated content only has the TTP* (Time To....P...Piece of Anatomy) factor and can be as good as if not better than studio generated content. Studio map-packs are also good and with expansions can introduce new elements to content generation for user-gen maps.
ASCII is a nostalgic thing.
Turn-based with turn off more users than it draws. Hence the never ending death of turn-based.
Permadeath and save file deletion is something that should always be an option. Take Jagged Alliance 2 Wildfire for example. There is an option for disabling saving while in combat. Anything that alienates a user such as forced permadeath is one less copy sold and/or downloaded.
Stu, Diablo, or rather Diablo 2 rather does in fact meet all 4 of your requirements. It obviously has random dungeons and stats. Then, in Hardcore mode you have permadeath with no save file to speak of it 'kinda' meets the fourth requirement.
*I credit Steve with coining and/or sharing this term
# posted by 
: October 01, 2009 12:06 PM
: October 01, 2009 12:06 PM
To me a roguelike is
- RPG (as per your looseish definition)
- with procedurally generated content
- and permadeath
I pretty much agree with those. Spelunky gets the "roguelike" term applied to it whenever it gets mentioned even though it only qualifies with for the last two.
- RPG (as per your looseish definition)
- with procedurally generated content
- and permadeath
I pretty much agree with those. Spelunky gets the "roguelike" term applied to it whenever it gets mentioned even though it only qualifies with for the last two.
# posted by : October 01, 2009 12:36 PM
: October 01, 2009 12:36 PM
This is a fun article. For me a rogue like would be an RPG I could pick up for as little as 3 minutes and have a bit of adventuring fun. I have it on iPod touch and it saw wild usage while I was flying.
Also with a roguelike, it is important not to involve the character personally in the story, no backstory, no biography, no no no. In roguelike the character is basically me, uninteresting me, and the only attachment I have to that me on the screen is that magic weapon I found at long last, and I don't want to die and loose it.
So basically, a rogue should not invoke an attachment to the main character, a rogue should present an adventure for me play, be it random or static.
I think Diablo is pretty much a rogue, I don't ever remember hearing story line on the main character, just some uninteresting guy following a very interesting but short story.
Any jRPG is pretty out on roguelike. Most jRPG characters are too deep to fit the bill.
And of course I forgot to get into its need for stats of some kind. Preferably stats I can create a character with and edit as I level, but either way works.
Also with a roguelike, it is important not to involve the character personally in the story, no backstory, no biography, no no no. In roguelike the character is basically me, uninteresting me, and the only attachment I have to that me on the screen is that magic weapon I found at long last, and I don't want to die and loose it.
So basically, a rogue should not invoke an attachment to the main character, a rogue should present an adventure for me play, be it random or static.
I think Diablo is pretty much a rogue, I don't ever remember hearing story line on the main character, just some uninteresting guy following a very interesting but short story.
Any jRPG is pretty out on roguelike. Most jRPG characters are too deep to fit the bill.
And of course I forgot to get into its need for stats of some kind. Preferably stats I can create a character with and edit as I level, but either way works.
-For a party based entity, there's a smattering in the deep crevices...but otherwise the upcoming Peleron's Brilliant Rebirth is one to keep any eye on. Lots of others have a gambit of summons, friendly neutrals that fight independently, and so on.
-Roguelikes need not be turnbased. Dicin' Knight, Baroque, Scallywag, Diablo, Triangle Wizard, etc.
-Need not be single player. Potentially upcoming MnemonicRL aims for MM tendencies..and even before them you've got the likes of Crossfire and Deliantra and such.
-3D can work for Roguelikes. Shiren 3, Baroque, 3069, IVAN3D wranglings, Scallywag, Egoboo, that one Unnamed one on Roguetemple aiming for 3D...the list continues in other words.
-Most other genres could use some Roguelike elements applied. We've already got gists of Survival, Platforming, Historical, Sci-fi, etc. All depends on what people either try to adapt into a Roguelike and/or inject Roguelike into whatever.
-Permadeath is also not necessary for a Roguelike---just yet another stylistic choice contingent on the gameplay design for any given title.
Essentially, "Roguelike" is a spirit more than anything by my reckoning. Whether or not something fits into a neat checklist generally doesn't matter much just the same as all other gaming genres have a diverse assortment of divergent players out there.
YMMV though considering I'm at a far different place in terms of "Roguelikes" on the whole than most everybody...
-Roguelikes need not be turnbased. Dicin' Knight, Baroque, Scallywag, Diablo, Triangle Wizard, etc.
-Need not be single player. Potentially upcoming MnemonicRL aims for MM tendencies..and even before them you've got the likes of Crossfire and Deliantra and such.
-3D can work for Roguelikes. Shiren 3, Baroque, 3069, IVAN3D wranglings, Scallywag, Egoboo, that one Unnamed one on Roguetemple aiming for 3D...the list continues in other words.
-Most other genres could use some Roguelike elements applied. We've already got gists of Survival, Platforming, Historical, Sci-fi, etc. All depends on what people either try to adapt into a Roguelike and/or inject Roguelike into whatever.
-Permadeath is also not necessary for a Roguelike---just yet another stylistic choice contingent on the gameplay design for any given title.
Essentially, "Roguelike" is a spirit more than anything by my reckoning. Whether or not something fits into a neat checklist generally doesn't matter much just the same as all other gaming genres have a diverse assortment of divergent players out there.
YMMV though considering I'm at a far different place in terms of "Roguelikes" on the whole than most everybody...
I made a Roguelike last year (playable at www.tinyfrogsoftware.com) which I think fits my definition.
Randomly generated dungeons, Turn-based,
combat,
Permadeath (optional)
No one has brought up combat as an essential part, which I think differentates a game such as NetHack from a procedually generated space trading game for example.
I think Diablo is an almost roguelike.
Also I've been playing Mystery Dungeon Shiran the Wanderer on the DS. Its an interesting Japanese take on the roguelike genre and has party members (autonomously controlled) at various times throughout the game.
Randomly generated dungeons, Turn-based,
combat,
Permadeath (optional)
No one has brought up combat as an essential part, which I think differentates a game such as NetHack from a procedually generated space trading game for example.
I think Diablo is an almost roguelike.
Also I've been playing Mystery Dungeon Shiran the Wanderer on the DS. Its an interesting Japanese take on the roguelike genre and has party members (autonomously controlled) at various times throughout the game.
I like these from Stu:
- permadeath
- random dungeons
- stats
- loss of save file on reload
but want to add in one more thing
- 1 turn per 1 action
I wouldn't consider real time games to be roguelikes as the mechanics feel different
- permadeath
- random dungeons
- stats
- loss of save file on reload
but want to add in one more thing
- 1 turn per 1 action
I wouldn't consider real time games to be roguelikes as the mechanics feel different
I love roguelikes. The only thing I would change is the continually changing dungeon levels. Once a level has been generated, it should be saved with your character. I'm pretty sure that this was originally done only to save on resources and simplify programming the game. There's no excuse for modern roguelikes to be this way.
I'll grudgingly admit that Dwarf Fortress can be called a roguelike, because the single-player mode fits, barely, into the definition. But its fortress mode is in no way roguelike.
I'll grudgingly admit that Dwarf Fortress can be called a roguelike, because the single-player mode fits, barely, into the definition. But its fortress mode is in no way roguelike.
-- Are there Rogue-likes where you control a party? What are they? That sounds like it might be fun.
If you can make the argument that Diablo is rogue-like, then I guess you could probably make an argument for the Neverwinter Nights DLC Infinite Dungeons. You have random dungeons, could have perma-death, but there's no way for it to wipe your saves.
If you can make the argument that Diablo is rogue-like, then I guess you could probably make an argument for the Neverwinter Nights DLC Infinite Dungeons. You have random dungeons, could have perma-death, but there's no way for it to wipe your saves.
I'll throw this one out there: I've seen indie darling Spelunky ( http://www.spelunkyworld.com/ ) referred to many times as a roguelike. Procedurally generated, deep but finite dungeon, an inventory, permadeath - but no stats, and action-platforming gameplay rather than turn-based. Personally, I think a genre definition comes from gameplay, and I'm of the opinion that roguelikes are necessarily turn-based. (Graphical roguelikes are still roguelikes, and Dwarf Fortress is as much of a roguelike as Bookworm Adventures is a text adventure.)
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# posted by : October 02, 2009 9:17 PM
: October 02, 2009 9:17 PMLinks to this post:
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