Friday, October 02, 2009
Guest Post: To Save I Quit
Note: The following guest post comes from the mind of indie gamer AND game developer Greg Tedder, who volunteered to help fill in while I'm off on vacation. Enjoy!
I neither claim to be perfect, nor deny my strongly worded views against this subject, but as I have posted before, I think I have seen some light. But before I begin: don’t misjudge the Coyote by this article. This is not he - he will be back, and the quality will go back up. And to delay further, may I introduce myself in a typical AA fashion? My name is Greg Tedder, I am 30 years old, and I read this blog. Now on to the subject matter!
Diablo 2 was no doubt a hit, arguably better than its hit predecessor, and every turn-based RPG player watched in disgust as this “Action RPG” series ripped their world apart. It cemented the basic needs to make real time RPGs fun and simple enough for anyone to get started playing. It also brought a few new concepts to the board, one of which became infamous in debates, "save and quit."
(Meaning: You can only save the game by quitting --- Rampant Coyote)
Looking at the why: save-and-quit tore at some lingering habits and deep wounds in old school cRPG play. CRPG’s had a nasty habit of simply killing the player party at its leisure. The gamer expected to die at any moment and probably saved the game on average of every 1 to 3 minutes and spent untold hours using the tried and true technique of "quit-'n-load."
(Or rather, "quit-n-reload." You quit the game, and reload the most recent saved game file. --- Rampant Coyote)
There were issuess of weight restrictions, long journeys, lack of provisions, and insanely low survival rates. These issues added quit-n-load frustration in many ways. If the party was too wounded after a fight, quit-n-load. If the clumsy thief broke one of this two lock picks that weight a pound each, quit-n-load. If your dwarf couldn’t handle the cheese at the inn and is suffering from constipation+2 and your priest doesn’t have enough spell points to cast Hung Chows magic enema and then cast dispel undead in the anticipated fight, quit-n-load.
Quit-n-load is okay sometimes, and necessary for a brutal game, but for many gamers they would rather play the game than spend their short gaming hours doing file management and getting killed for some random reason.
Quit-n-load also detracts from certain aspects of a good RPG experience. When you come up to that treasure chest, but your rogue is dead - and you have no idea what will happen if you sling the lid off you should be facing a hard choice. With the quit-n-load technique you simply save and start experimenting with no worries - and this often leads to a few good laughs.
With the save-and-quit technique you really have a decision to make, and walking away from that chest is a real option and often a wise decision. And to me, having to make decisions that there is no going back on is role playing.
A well-balanced game should be able to offer players a fair shot with save-and-quit. There are some dos and don’ts attached with it that I might add have been very well addressed by Depths of Peril. For one, the gamer shouldn’t have to buy a UPC to ensure his 4 hours of fun doesn’t end in a merciless loss of electricity on a Saturday afternoon in 2003 while procrastinating mowing the lawn (but I’m not bitter).
These games should be held to a higher standard of balance, and offer plenty of warning should the player decide to venture out their league. It should be very careful what it takes from the player on death, a small amount of currency should suffice as a death tax. All experience, item gains, and other player progress should be saved for the sake of the gamer's sanity.
Seriously, grinding is bad enough for some. Why do it twice for the same increase?
Labels: Game Design
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 7:16 AM (Permalink)
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In regards to consequences, one of my most memorable experiences comes from when I was playing through Greyhawk: The Temple of Elemental Evil on hardcore mode. It was probably my 4th or 5th attempt at doing so, and I was 5-10 hours in or so. I'd recruited a guy to my party who was a couple of levels above me who was absolutely brutal with a bow. I had just rolled into a new town and went down to the blacksmith's shop. After I made some small talk with the blacksmith, I noticed that I could move his anvil aside and reveal something sparkling inside. I decided that I would do so. Of course, the aforementioned blacksmith was not too pleased with what I had just done and he began to attack me. He was a level or two above all the guys in my party, but I was pretty sure I could take him thanks to my new arrow flinging ally. Unfortunately, no sooner did the blacksmith start attacking me, than the archer informed me that the blacksmith was his father, I was cretin and that he would now proceed to shoot arrows into my face.
Even though you could say I "wasted" that time (my party was SUPER massacred), it is without a doubt one of the most memorable video game playing experiences I have ever had and I still look back on it with a level of nostalgia. If I had merely saved the game, moved the anvil, then reloaded, I doubt I would even remember the experience.
As annoying as it can be, having proper consequences can put a thrill in a game that would often be lacking.
Even though you could say I "wasted" that time (my party was SUPER massacred), it is without a doubt one of the most memorable video game playing experiences I have ever had and I still look back on it with a level of nostalgia. If I had merely saved the game, moved the anvil, then reloaded, I doubt I would even remember the experience.
As annoying as it can be, having proper consequences can put a thrill in a game that would often be lacking.
I think that its largely overlooked that diabloii is more roguelike than crpg. In that sense save+quit wouldn't work in a standard crpg.
non roguelike players can't abide permadeath, save+quit mechanisms.
Would they have worked in Ultima IV or VIII or Dungeon Master? They'd have given up screaming mad and hurling abuse at the designer.
With fixed storylines and dungeons, and knowing that Meathook the butcher will always give you the cleaver of superbcleave+1 if you ask for it makes replaying these things redundant.
I'd love to add these mechanisms to my classic CRPG, it enforces the players choices back opon them, but people don't want that, they want to get to the end with minor difficulty without taking responsibility for their actions, hence quit+reload!
non roguelike players can't abide permadeath, save+quit mechanisms.
Would they have worked in Ultima IV or VIII or Dungeon Master? They'd have given up screaming mad and hurling abuse at the designer.
With fixed storylines and dungeons, and knowing that Meathook the butcher will always give you the cleaver of superbcleave+1 if you ask for it makes replaying these things redundant.
I'd love to add these mechanisms to my classic CRPG, it enforces the players choices back opon them, but people don't want that, they want to get to the end with minor difficulty without taking responsibility for their actions, hence quit+reload!
"I'd love to add these mechanisms to my classic CRPG, it enforces the players choices back opon them, but people don't want that, they want to get to the end with minor difficulty without taking responsibility for their actions, hence quit+reload!"
Depending on whom you ask the advantage of CRPGs is that comfy reloading isn't (usually ;-) possible with PnP-RPGs.
My opinion is that the realism of "real role-playing" is reduced by this and that players will try the same approach with their second try, perhaps a bit refined by using more health potions or preparing a better spell/using a different weapon. Or they grind some more and come back then.
What they usually don't do is trying a completely different approach. Something that keeps the flow of the game - even if it is something they didn't originally plan for.
Of course people will argue that a game has to be fun at all times but people differ in their perception of fun and to me a game shouldn't put me into the position of a dog pushing some buttons to get a snack.
Depending on whom you ask the advantage of CRPGs is that comfy reloading isn't (usually ;-) possible with PnP-RPGs.
My opinion is that the realism of "real role-playing" is reduced by this and that players will try the same approach with their second try, perhaps a bit refined by using more health potions or preparing a better spell/using a different weapon. Or they grind some more and come back then.
What they usually don't do is trying a completely different approach. Something that keeps the flow of the game - even if it is something they didn't originally plan for.
Of course people will argue that a game has to be fun at all times but people differ in their perception of fun and to me a game shouldn't put me into the position of a dog pushing some buttons to get a snack.
# posted by 
: October 02, 2009 8:19 PM
: October 02, 2009 8:19 PM
IMHO, this is something that needs to be player-selectable, if it's implemented at all. I enjoy saving the game and trying something foolish, just to see the results. (Or just trying the different options, foolish or not, to see what happens.) And when I'm playing late at night, or when my eyes are otherwise blurry from spending too long at the computer, I can make foolish mistakes accidentally, too. Often, these are just interface slips.
I think a developer is better off designing a game so that it doesn't actually REWARD constant reloads. For example, treasure should not be random, so that a player isn't encouraged to reload and reload and reload until a chest contains the perfect item.
Otherwise, as I say, let the player decide (as with that hardcore mode in the Temple of Elemental Evil). We're all different, and I appreciate when a game developer recognizes that. All too often, a different game preference comes to be seen as a moral failing or something. Hey, it's just a GAME. :)
PS. Nice guest post.
I think a developer is better off designing a game so that it doesn't actually REWARD constant reloads. For example, treasure should not be random, so that a player isn't encouraged to reload and reload and reload until a chest contains the perfect item.
Otherwise, as I say, let the player decide (as with that hardcore mode in the Temple of Elemental Evil). We're all different, and I appreciate when a game developer recognizes that. All too often, a different game preference comes to be seen as a moral failing or something. Hey, it's just a GAME. :)
PS. Nice guest post.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the comments.
@ stu: I completely agree, some games would not work with this mechanic. While Wizardry 8 offered Iron Man mode Arnika Road pretty much rendered that pointless, you are going to die on this road at some point or another no matter what, and that would wipe the fun out of it. From what I can remember of Ultima 7, you could do this since you never really die anyway, and it would make you dungeon crawl a bit more cautiously. They would just need to add some sort of portal system. A game designed around this mechanic would have to take all of this into consideration.
@ WCG: Would it make a difference if the game were 10 hours vrs 40 hours? D&D cRPG's are so long that it is easy to feel like you made a mistake that will cost you precious content. If you could play through it in a weekend or two could this possibly add to the replay value of the game in your opinion? And I completely get your point that this could be made optional.
@ stu: I completely agree, some games would not work with this mechanic. While Wizardry 8 offered Iron Man mode Arnika Road pretty much rendered that pointless, you are going to die on this road at some point or another no matter what, and that would wipe the fun out of it. From what I can remember of Ultima 7, you could do this since you never really die anyway, and it would make you dungeon crawl a bit more cautiously. They would just need to add some sort of portal system. A game designed around this mechanic would have to take all of this into consideration.
@ WCG: Would it make a difference if the game were 10 hours vrs 40 hours? D&D cRPG's are so long that it is easy to feel like you made a mistake that will cost you precious content. If you could play through it in a weekend or two could this possibly add to the replay value of the game in your opinion? And I completely get your point that this could be made optional.
Would it make a difference if the game were 10 hours vs 40 hours? Maybe - probably - but I have a hard time seeing a 10-hour game as an RPG.
Well, that might be the wrong way to put it. But I like to get attached to my characters - that seems to be the whole point of RPGs - and a 10-hour game doesn't give enough time to develop that.
No, I'm not trying to argue that Rogue-likes aren't RPGs. But the permadeath is one reason why I don't play them much. My characters don't last long enough for me to feel a real attachment.
Well, that might be the wrong way to put it. But I like to get attached to my characters - that seems to be the whole point of RPGs - and a 10-hour game doesn't give enough time to develop that.
No, I'm not trying to argue that Rogue-likes aren't RPGs. But the permadeath is one reason why I don't play them much. My characters don't last long enough for me to feel a real attachment.
The typo-nitpick-squad says: UPC is a barcode (one that they probably did purchase along with their game). I think you meant to say "UPS".
I tend to fall in the permadeath-loathing, quicksave-loving crowd. Not the least of which is that sometimes a game will crash or (due to some unfamiliarity with the controls or just a game bug) my party will do something completely stupid and get killed.
And sometimes I *do* want to see what'll happen if I press the button labelled "DO NOT PRESS" surrounded by a gazillion automatic rifles and laser beams. :)
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I tend to fall in the permadeath-loathing, quicksave-loving crowd. Not the least of which is that sometimes a game will crash or (due to some unfamiliarity with the controls or just a game bug) my party will do something completely stupid and get killed.
And sometimes I *do* want to see what'll happen if I press the button labelled "DO NOT PRESS" surrounded by a gazillion automatic rifles and laser beams. :)
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