Wednesday, October 07, 2009
Guest Post: RPG Character Creation - What's Your Pleasure?
Over 2 hours just to create a character? You call that fun?
Greg Tedder does. He's gone above and beyond the call of --- well, something --- and provided me with not just one but two guest posts for this week. So here is his second, for your reading and arguing pleasure. This one is about creating and developing your characters in CRPGs. Enjoy:
This post may read a bit like a review, but the games here are not in review, their rules engines are. I have trouble playing an RPG and not wondering how exactly each stat effects each one of my actions. It adds an intriguing element, makes me want to try things, tweak, and try again. I have been playing Realms of Arcania lately and loving it again. I spent around 2 to 2 1/2 hours just creating my party. Just to further put myself in perspective, I very rarely get an opportunity to play PnP but when I am waiting on my wife at the book store I enjoy thumbing through the rule books to see how each one works. Interesting stuff. So I want to go through several RPG’s and point out the points that made the rule system fun for me.jRPG’s use an otherworldly system that is usually based on a wide variety of high and low numbers. Very few of these systems did I ever get into the details because the stats were mostly uninteresting to me. The interest usually lied in cool weapons and interesting ways to add skills and abilities to the characters. Weapons are a big part of this, scattered throughout the world you incrementally find more powerful weapons and items to equip. That next sword of detrimental damage is what fuels your dungeon crawl.
Wizardry and the Realms of Arcania series style games can be very intimidating at first. You get two games in one, first the party creation game, then the adventuring game. The stats are detailed, daunting, and crucial. A whimsically created party is going to meet the "quit-n-load" beast early on and often. These games have sent many gamers running back to Doom for years, even giving RPG’s a black eye. But those who dug into the manual and tinkered with the numbers found that stats were the strategy that would reward them. I wouldn’t want every RPG like these, but these are the games I feel most rewarded when I am successful.
CRPG’s based on the AD&D rules have their own characteristics. When you see AD&D on the box you know a challenge awaits. It took me a while to get used to the fact that the stats were almost set in stone after creation with a few exceptions at certain levels. I had gotten used to Wizardry 7 giving me some options at each level, and Realms of Arcania giving me a pile of paperwork to fill out at each level. But there is a certain amount o allure to these games. On the surface the stats are simple to roll and edit, but the consequences of your choices are very advanced when weighed against the other choices made concerning the character. For this system I would have to say that the character classes are my favorite part. Each one is so detailed and interesting, and while some are disappointing when battle tested, their presence and lore is still very inviting.
Fallout shares some characteristics of AD&D, but feels very different. The skills were fun, and the set in stone stats were a challenge to tweak out right. The stats were made even more enjoyable because they were so directly tied in with the strategy combat present in the game. It didn’t take much adventuring to realize your character can’t keep up with your game play style. In fact, it probably took many of use a few characters before we really had a “good” character to play. To top it all off, the perks were just cool from the name to the effect. For instance, “Bloody Mess” sounds pretty cool, and quite honestly it was. :)
To end with we may as well hit on the action RPGs a bit. These games usually come with a simplified rule system that allow for high levels and big numbers. For the most part, stats at level up in these games are simply for survival purposes. It is usually in the armaments and skills section that these games offer some fun element. In Diablo 2 I am a gambling addict I want a better weapon, no weapon is good enough, as soon as I get a better weapon I want a better weapon. What drug did Blizzard put in this game?
There is no "perfect" or "evolved" approach to character creation or development. There are a lot of games that "did it right," and "right" may be more subjective than you might think.
Labels: Roleplaying Games
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 7:55 AM (Permalink)
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Ha! Glad to know I'm not the only gear gambler out there. I wrote an entire blog post about it a while back: http://www.morinar.com/2009/06/gambling-for-gear.html
Also, I've spent the last couple of weeks replaying Titan Quest (with Immortal Throne) and while it is a VERY good Diablo clone, and probably improves on the game in just about every way, the absence of gear gambling is definitely an oversight I just can't seem to ignore.
Also, I've spent the last couple of weeks replaying Titan Quest (with Immortal Throne) and while it is a VERY good Diablo clone, and probably improves on the game in just about every way, the absence of gear gambling is definitely an oversight I just can't seem to ignore.
Another Diablo II gear gambler here. I rarely gamble for rings or amulets, as that eats most of my gambling budget, but anything else is fair game.
In my opinion, the most fun I've ever had creating a character was in Arcanum. The amount of options you had available was just staggering. Magic or technology? Or neither? What kind of technology? Do you want to be a gunsmith or an armorer? Stats for both charisma AND beauty? And don't forget to pick one of the 50 different background options to further distinguish your character!
@Morinar and gear gambers :) Nice article, I actually do find weapons and armor of use, but the trick is to gamble early on when you enter a new area because they general have higher level items than the other merchants are selling. I missed Titans Quest but enjoyed Sacred.
@Tyler: Arcanum is a game I and many others have voted for at GOG. I have watched game play videos and really want to try it out!!
@Tyler: Arcanum is a game I and many others have voted for at GOG. I have watched game play videos and really want to try it out!!
I love spending lots of time making hard decisions about statistics in RPGs like Wizardry and Might & Magic, but there are more than a few things which always bugged me about how character development systems are typically handled in older RPGs (newer RPGs have less problems but also typically don't have much complexity to begin with, which means they're largely irrelevant to the discussion of sophisticated rules engines).
For starters, it's often unnecessarily difficult to reroll basic stats (like Str, Int, Dext etc.) in these games. More often than not, you have to finish the entire character development process (or at least assign all bonus stats points) before you get the chance to start over from the beginning. Also, while adding additional layers of complexity - such as the way Wizardry 6/7 distinguishes between "trainable" skills and "untrainable" skills - is usually a great idea in and of itself, there are typically few if any in-game indicators which call the player's attention to these nuances, and even the (usually quite thick) manuals are notoriously bad at shedding light on such important aspects of the gameplay.
As for Realms of Arkania, while it certainly has an impressive array of stats options, I would argue that its system is a particularly good example of how an otherwise fascinating rules engine can get completely buried beneath layers upon layers of sheer obtuseness (admittedly it makes more sense to blame the underlying Das Schwarze Auge PnP system for that, but developer Attic could have done something to make it a little bit more intuitive). The case in point here is the bewildering spell system, which consists almost entirely of unintelligible and almost comically unpronounceable names (what was wrong with calling a fireball spell "Fireball"?). Also, it certainly doesn't help that the game throws in a scary list of obscure and occasionally practically useless/meaningless secondary skills and phobias, the exact gameplay effects of which are almost impossible for the player to assess correctly without knowing exactly what challenges the game world has in store for him or her. While I understand perfectly well what "agorophobia" means, how do I know in advance how many large open spaces the party will visit during the course of the game?
Part of the problem here is that while a lot of players (again, myself included) appreciate having lots of stats in our RPGs, not all of us enjoy having to engage in the time-consuming trial-and-error process of experimenting with numerous parties to learn about fundamental gameplay mechanics just because the game doesn't care to tell you enough about them in advance. While I'm certainly not asking for less complexity here (if I wanted that I could always play Fallout 3), I just think it's important to point out that - contrary to the impressions given by most classic RPGs - there's no natural law which says that a sophisticated character development system must come bundled with a cumbersome interface, a curious lack of feedback and inadequately explained game mechanics...
For starters, it's often unnecessarily difficult to reroll basic stats (like Str, Int, Dext etc.) in these games. More often than not, you have to finish the entire character development process (or at least assign all bonus stats points) before you get the chance to start over from the beginning. Also, while adding additional layers of complexity - such as the way Wizardry 6/7 distinguishes between "trainable" skills and "untrainable" skills - is usually a great idea in and of itself, there are typically few if any in-game indicators which call the player's attention to these nuances, and even the (usually quite thick) manuals are notoriously bad at shedding light on such important aspects of the gameplay.
As for Realms of Arkania, while it certainly has an impressive array of stats options, I would argue that its system is a particularly good example of how an otherwise fascinating rules engine can get completely buried beneath layers upon layers of sheer obtuseness (admittedly it makes more sense to blame the underlying Das Schwarze Auge PnP system for that, but developer Attic could have done something to make it a little bit more intuitive). The case in point here is the bewildering spell system, which consists almost entirely of unintelligible and almost comically unpronounceable names (what was wrong with calling a fireball spell "Fireball"?). Also, it certainly doesn't help that the game throws in a scary list of obscure and occasionally practically useless/meaningless secondary skills and phobias, the exact gameplay effects of which are almost impossible for the player to assess correctly without knowing exactly what challenges the game world has in store for him or her. While I understand perfectly well what "agorophobia" means, how do I know in advance how many large open spaces the party will visit during the course of the game?
Part of the problem here is that while a lot of players (again, myself included) appreciate having lots of stats in our RPGs, not all of us enjoy having to engage in the time-consuming trial-and-error process of experimenting with numerous parties to learn about fundamental gameplay mechanics just because the game doesn't care to tell you enough about them in advance. While I'm certainly not asking for less complexity here (if I wanted that I could always play Fallout 3), I just think it's important to point out that - contrary to the impressions given by most classic RPGs - there's no natural law which says that a sophisticated character development system must come bundled with a cumbersome interface, a curious lack of feedback and inadequately explained game mechanics...
Nice post! Yeah, I love detailed character creation (as you say, it's almost another game). It should be combined with a decent pre-rolled party (with character names that can be changed by the player) for people who don't get into such things,... but I do.
I agree with Demiath, too, that it's critical to know the game mechanics. I particularly hate games that give me all these wonderful skills, but where nothing but combat skills are really useful. That's disappointing enough, but when you don't know that ahead of time, it's really bad.
That's one advantage of playing old games. I'm currently re-playing Planescape Torment, and I'm loving it! I didn't get too far in the game the first time I played it, but I think that's because I made a standard fighter character. This time, I could look at multiple game FAQs (only for advice on character creation), so I knew enough to make a fighter with superior wisdom and intelligence (and no better strength and dexterity than the minimum).
This is a unique game, and you need to play it differently than most. But without knowing that ahead of time, I missed a lot of the game the first time I tried to play it.
I've noticed that in other games, too, though to a lesser extent. Games with extensive skill sets, which I love, are often more fun when the game's been out long enough to get advice from the game-playing community on what skills are actually useful. That's a shame.
I think that's the problem I had with Arcanum. Hmm,... maybe I should try to play that again, too. And I although I enjoyed all three Realms of Arkadia games, I remember being a bit disappointed, too. I don't remember exactly why, but Demiath might have put his finger on it. They just could have been a lot better. Well, a lot of RPGs are like that. As much as I enjoy that kind of game, they generally haven't come close to reaching their full potential.
I agree with Demiath, too, that it's critical to know the game mechanics. I particularly hate games that give me all these wonderful skills, but where nothing but combat skills are really useful. That's disappointing enough, but when you don't know that ahead of time, it's really bad.
That's one advantage of playing old games. I'm currently re-playing Planescape Torment, and I'm loving it! I didn't get too far in the game the first time I played it, but I think that's because I made a standard fighter character. This time, I could look at multiple game FAQs (only for advice on character creation), so I knew enough to make a fighter with superior wisdom and intelligence (and no better strength and dexterity than the minimum).
This is a unique game, and you need to play it differently than most. But without knowing that ahead of time, I missed a lot of the game the first time I tried to play it.
I've noticed that in other games, too, though to a lesser extent. Games with extensive skill sets, which I love, are often more fun when the game's been out long enough to get advice from the game-playing community on what skills are actually useful. That's a shame.
I think that's the problem I had with Arcanum. Hmm,... maybe I should try to play that again, too. And I although I enjoyed all three Realms of Arkadia games, I remember being a bit disappointed, too. I don't remember exactly why, but Demiath might have put his finger on it. They just could have been a lot better. Well, a lot of RPGs are like that. As much as I enjoy that kind of game, they generally haven't come close to reaching their full potential.
Great posts. This is the main reason I could never get into fallout 2 until very recently. I always tried to create a science and repair nerd, but I would get completely destroyed in the first part of the game before I could determine whether these skills were actually useful. I eventually had to use a character editor to boost some of the other skills like speech and lockpick, and then I was able to progress past the initial stages and see the awesomeness of having a science skill of over 150%.
The key to arcanum is using the web based character planner. After reading numerous faqs about character creation and seeing so many different opinions, I realized how flexible the system actually could be. But you really need to understand how few character points you get in the game, and what level you will be by the time you get the character that you want. I wanted to make a character that used a bunch of mechanical spiders for companions, but I needed to spend so many points to do so that my strength score was too low to actually carry the damn things by the time I could make them.
The main dilemma with all of this for me is that the more different skills and features and options there are available, the more fun it is for me to plan a character. But these options all make the development of the game exponentially more difficult in order to make each of these different builds interesting or even viable in the context of the story. Hence we get games like fallout 3 and mass effect, where your only skills are in your weapons you choose, and developing unique characters is impossible.
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The key to arcanum is using the web based character planner. After reading numerous faqs about character creation and seeing so many different opinions, I realized how flexible the system actually could be. But you really need to understand how few character points you get in the game, and what level you will be by the time you get the character that you want. I wanted to make a character that used a bunch of mechanical spiders for companions, but I needed to spend so many points to do so that my strength score was too low to actually carry the damn things by the time I could make them.
The main dilemma with all of this for me is that the more different skills and features and options there are available, the more fun it is for me to plan a character. But these options all make the development of the game exponentially more difficult in order to make each of these different builds interesting or even viable in the context of the story. Hence we get games like fallout 3 and mass effect, where your only skills are in your weapons you choose, and developing unique characters is impossible.
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