Tales of the Rampant Coyote
Adventures in Indie Gaming!


(  RSS Feed! | Games! | Forums! )

Monday, August 24, 2009
 
How Long Should an RPG Be?
I ran into this tech article on classic RPGs on tablet PCs last week which got me to thinkin' a little bit (I don't do it often, so it's worthy of note). The article is geared more towards discussing hardware, but in the context of playing older games such as Baldur's Gate. The author comments on the length of games of an earlier era versus today:
"The minute that I figured out that there's more than enough fan-made material out to give these classics a new lease on life, I started picking up used copies of them and making plans to play them, some of them for the first time. But then I ran into a problem: these games are long. For today's games, 30 hours of play time is epic; but old-school RPGs, could run well over 100 hours. In fact, I spent one summer working 15 hours a week as a computer lab monitor, and pretty much all I did was play once through the Mac ports of Fallout 1 and 2 for the whole summer."
But I don't think he's wrong. I do remember how the old games of yesteryear really weren't the kinds of games you beat in a week or four so you could move on to the next game. They required some measure of devotion. Though Oblivion and the latest Persona games aren't really all that old-school, and they sure took some serious time out of my life.

When I was at Infogrammes (now Atari) , the company head Bruno Bonnell told us that a study had shown what many of us suspected - the majority of players never "finish" their games. They would eventually give up and move on to the next game. Bonnell's contention was that we were wasting half our development efforts if the players were only playing half the game. I don't think the math necessarily applies - you reuse a LOT of code and content in later levels that is needed throughout the game.

While he wasn't speaking specifically of RPGs at the time, but I've little doubt that most copies of RPGs in the 1990s never accessed the "ending sequence" file on the hard drive. Players tend to play until they grow bored or frustrated, and then quit. Those aren't reactions any developer wants to his or her game. But even the most sadistic game designer really wants and expects players to actually see the endgame.

(As a side note, speaking of sadistic game designers: If anybody actually played through the final boss fight of Outwars to see the ending, I want to personally apologize. I was young, inexperienced, and I needed the money. And we'd lost half our team and most publisher support by then...)

Now, I do love my epic, sprawling RPGs that I can just lose myself in for a long time. In spite of its flaws, I had a blast playing Oblivion - if for no other reason than I was constantly finding something interesting to do, or a new quest line to follow up on. It's all well and good to say, "It got pretty old after a while," but when "while" is measured with three digits I think it is pretty forgivable.

But - let's get real here. A lot of these old RPGs which could consume multiple full 24-hour days of time to complete did not do so by providing second-upon-second of extremely high-quality, engaging content. And yes, Oblivion's fill-in-the-blank dungeon populations is included here. And Persona's random dungeons, too.

I think most players would really rather play a 20-hour game full of extremely awesome, high-quality, engaging content than a 100-hour game made up primarily of "meh." But I do wonder if there isn't a target value of an optimum average number of hours in an RPG before players start growing weary of even the most well-crafted storyline. I think the law of diminishing returns does apply somewhere where even the most devoted players may waver in their attention.

I remember a note in a game design lecture at GDC one year that the Japanese RPGs (which were just gaining some strong mainstream popularity at the time) were designed to have a boss battle about every two hours. The games were designed to hit a nice climax and stopping point every couple of hours - which was the average amount of time per day that their customers could play their games. I thought this was a brilliant concept.

It's hard to force the issue in a non-linear game, and less of an issue where games offer the option to save anywhere. But it's not a big deal to make sure that any significant segment of the game has reasonable stopping points with fairly satisfying conclusions and a promise of new developments to come at frequent, regular intervals.

Can this be extended on a larger level? Can it be extended to plots as well as gameplay? Should we a significant plot reversal / twist approximately every eight hours, so that players don't grow too tired of making baby-steps towards the goal? Is 25 - 40 hours an "optimum length" for any major RPG, beyond which tedium is likely to set in?

Is there such a thing as an RPG being "too short?" As short stories coexist with novels, is there a place in the market for a "small" RPGs of 4-8 hours' length alongside their big brothers of 24+ hours length? Is that long enough to have a satisfying RPG experience and sink your teeth into the characters and world? Or would they only work as part of a larger series? Or not at all?

Let us pretend that bang-for-the-buck price differences weren't an issue - you'd be paying about $1.50 per hour regardless of the size of any single game. You could play one huge 100-hour game, or five short 20-hour games for the same price. Let us make another huge assumption, too, that quality would be the same - the 100-hour RPG wouldn't be padded with tons of "filler." Under these ideal conditions, everything else being equal, would you prefer to reach a conclusion relatively quickly and move on to the next game, or play a single "epic-length" RPG which can pull you in for weeks and weeks?

So fess up: How much does size really matter to you?

Labels: ,



Did you enjoy this post? Feel free to share it: del.icio.us | Digg it | Furl | reddit | Yahoo MyWeb

Comments:
It will surprise absolutely no one familiar with my work that I prefer short-and-replayable to loooooooong.

Of course, I didn't find BG2 or Fallout (2, I don't think I ever played 1) to be too long. :) I have tried playing a few really old RPGs and do tend to lose interest, partly because there's just not enough plot advancement. Some really old games with understandably limited art look about the same for hours and hours and hours and eventually I'm just sick of it. More plot, more change of environment, more sense of achievement, and I'd be more inclined to keep going.

I have some instinctive distrust of long games by now as well, as a person who *really likes stories* and has had a number of games completely fall apart plotwise near the end because someone ran out of time.
 
I think the key is if the game holds your interest. When I completed The Witcher, even as long as it was, I was still wanting more, I never did get bored with it. Contrast that to Titan Quest where I was pretty much bored by the second continent and just persevered to the end. I didn't bother with the expansion.

Usually if a game can't hold my interest I don't finish it. I started Drakensang, and about 1/3 of the way through it I got bored, set it aside, and haven't returned.

One thing I do not care for is that in some games it seems like there is "padding" that only serves to add length and does nothing to advance the plot or do anything other than maybe give you XP.
 
There's a great essay that addresses this topic over on Insult Swordfighting:

http://insultswordfighting.blogspot.com/2008/01/new-taxonomy-of-gamers-supply-and.html

For the record, I have a large stack of games I always meant to finish...
 
Great storytelling can be fantastic, but I know that the point where I start to tire of an RPG is the point where I can no longer keep the entire story in my head. It's had too many twists and turns and all I can focus on is the next set of goals.

For example, compare Tolkein to more recent huge fantasy series. LOTR doesnt' actually have a lot of twists and turns. The complexity comes in that the party gets split so you have a lot of different characters to follow. To me that's more interesting than one convoluted storyline.

So I prefer my games short but replayable from different points of view.
 
I agree with a lot of what spinksville said. I can't keep all the twists and turns in my memory, and I like being able to play a game through different ways. I started writing a fuller reply, but it go long, so I posted it here
 
It's interesting, because Trip Hawkins at 3DO said the same thing about players not finishing games. This was his argument for cranking out a continual supply of short Army Men games. He argued they were giving the players short, manageable games that they could actually finish. Of course, it might have helped if the games were actually good...

Personally, I'm not sure. I definitely notice I don't have the same amount of patience I used to when it comes to long games. Even a few years ago I ran all the way through the original Final Fantasy. Thinking about that now just gives me a bit of dread in thinking about slogging through some of the longer and more convoluted dungeons.

From a business point of view, it's an interesting tradeoff. Splitting an "epic" game into multiple sections can be risky because the only people likely to play part 2 are those who already played part 1, so your audience can become more and more limited as you go on. On the other hand, trying to package up your epic RPG into a giant $50 package goes against people's inclination that indie games should be cheaper than "real games" (ha!). So, splitting that into 5 different segments of $11 each (to cover transaction fees) might make that seem more acceptable to some people.

As a player, not sure where I stand. I guess I'd rather have a moderate amount of quality content over a lot of mediocre filler. But, if I bought a $25 game and it only lasted a good 4 hours, would I be happy? Hmm....
 
If we are talking single player only then I feel like shorter games would be better since everyone seems to have ADD nowadays.
 
I look at my copy of Diablo II and think that it could take over a hundred hours to finish, so I put the game back down.
The last long games I finished were NWN & Drakan: The Ancient Gates.
I like action co-op RPGs, my ideal game would be one that you and a buddy can complete in about a weekend (20 hrs or so), and then go back and play again on a harder difficulty. And again... (By this I don't mean the the monsters have more health, they think differently).
 
Quote: "...you reuse a LOT of code and content in later levels that is needed throughout the game"

Would this be a part of the problem perhaps? With most games, by the time I get half-way, I feel as though I have already seen everything there is to see. Oblivion was really fun once I realised that (in contrast with Morrowind and to a lesser extent Fallout 3) on no account should I enter the random forts, dungeons and oblivion gates. They all seemed the same - same walls, same monsters, similar layouts...

Or is it more a matter of pacing? Balancing the main questline with side quests... Take BG2 - the games was extremely linear in chapters 3, 4 and 6, but gave you complete freedom in chapters 2 and 5. For me, this is exremely well paced - I can hang around to do some more quests in chapter 5, or I can just hurry through to the endgame.
 
Heh, heh. The last RPG I actually completed was Wasteland. I love big, sprawling games, but I never get very far in them. It's just embarrassing how little of BG and BG2 I actually played (although I played the beginnings a few times over the years, not wanting to go back to my old save games).

No matter how good the story is, no matter how good the game is, I get bored and look for something different (often reloading an old game for a change of pace). I always intend to return to the game - I still intend to go back to where I left The Witcher some time ago - but I rarely do. After awhile, I've forgotten how to even play the game. All the little details are gone.

With the Elder Scrolls games, it's similar, but I also have to be careful not to let my character level up too much. I'm really hopeless at any kind of "real-time" game (I need to sneak around in Oblivion and one-shot kill my enemies with a bow).

I also tend to enjoy the very early parts of RPGs the most, when my characters are extremely weak. I like creating and building my characters, but I get bored with them, too, at upper levels. And I have a very bad habit of starting over on games many times, because I think I can do better with my party composition. I don't get very far in the game, but I might play the beginning over and over.

So, yeah, short games would work for me. :)
 
how short is too short? I don't think your 4-8hr idea would stack up. How much character building can you do?

Things would have to be so cut down that I wonder if it would be worth it. Maybe each game could be a single quest on the scale of a small side quest.

An entire rpg in 4-8hrs I cant see, but maybe lots of small 4-8 hour installments, 1 dungeon etc. in a 4-8hr episode.

I remember in smaller/simpler RPGS that were still fun like Questron II, you could do a lot in 8hrs. But in say, Pool of Radiance where 1 battle could take an hour, 4-8hrs is just party character creation!

I think the attention span of gamers today is a totally different thing than what it was in the past. I can't imagine current gamers playing through bards tale 3, graphis and sound aside. Spending 100s of hours slogging through mazes with insanely hard battles wouldnt cut it now (no matter how much I love it).

Pool of Radiance, utter classic but a 5 hour epic battle at sokol keep would not fly in this day and age.

Part of me really laments this, I'm paying how much for a new title for how many hours of gameplay today, when I paid $20-30 for Pool of Raidance, Ultima 6 etc and got 100's of hours out of each. Inflation aside, its hard to justify cost/hours.

getting off track now :) I'll stop here.
 
It is definitely possible to create an RPG of arbitrary length. Demigod contains an entire RPG battle system with levels, items, classes, etc. within a 30-minute time frame; add a storyline and you're set.
 
I'd think going episodic would be a no-brainer, honestly... each episode for $7-$11 for a nice focused 8-10 hour arc within the main story, and when they're all done, you package them all up and sell that whole thing for $35-$50-whatever, while still keeping individual episodes available. So you can offer both options to both types of buyers.

It has of course nothing to do with whether one way of doing it is 'better' than the other. Simply some type of buyers like to buy episodic, others like to buy the whole thing at once after seeing the first few hours. Catering to both types is obviously worth it... as long as there are enough buyers of each type in your market.

I think RPGs are uniquely able to take advantage of the 'short episodic structure' because of their ability to port built-up characters from one game to another.

As for the "decreasing" sales of the later episodes, you can choose to look at it like that, or you can choose to look at it as creating a loss-leader (but only in the sense that the "loss" is selling $7 when supposedly it could have been more). Sure, some people who would have paid $40 initially and never finished the whole game might pay only $7 instead, but some others who would would never have paid $40 in the first place can be enticed into buying for $7, and possibly converted into buying the whole thing after that.
 
Perhaps this is a tangent too far, but I can't help but wonder about MMOs in this context. Those beasties are notorious for "filler" and extraordinarily long "narratives". The business model relies on it.

And, y'know, I've never been all that satisfied with them *as games* for more than a couple dozen hours at most.

Switching gears, now I'm wondering why we don't see more RPGs with different points of view, as Spinks might allude to with the LOTR plotting. She's right, it's an interesting setup and can make for great storytelling, but most mainstream RPGs are either behemoth Gordian Plots or Oblivion/Falloutish sandboxes. Are we that afraid to make an ensemble cast rather than the prototypical teenage male with issues and a big sword?

So... to answer the question, I want a RPG to be exactly as long as it takes to tell a great story and have a bit of fun developing my character and learning the intricacies of the combat (and other) game systems. If the story drags or the combat becomes a time sink (overly repetitious in order to "gate" content), I start thinking of doing something else.

Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume is pretty short (maybe 15 hours per playthrough, tops), but you can play through three different storylines via the New Game Plus feature (yay, Chrono Trigger!), and each storyline fleshes out a sort of quantum possibility state for the main storyline. It's a lot of fun to go through and see how the characters' destinies change.

The game has different "lengths", then. To play through and see everything, you play the three storylines (and the bonus dungeon which has some fun character moments, albeit "non-canon") for 60+ hours, easily. Playing through one storyline is a pretty quick experience, by comparison, and even that 15 hours or so is broken up in six Chapters, and several discrete battles, with plenty of opportunities to take a break. (Being on a handheld has something to do with that, I'm sure, but in a world where gamers are aging and have other priorities, short session gaming is valuable design.)

Indeed, I prefer short session gaming, but I like that I can play in a world for several sessions.

...lots of words to say "it depends". ;)
 
Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link



<< Home

Powered by Blogger