Friday, July 24, 2009
Best CRPG of the Last Five Years?
So we old-school gamers like to grouse about how they don't make 'em like they used to, and how today's games are pretty-but-dumb, etc. etc. But as much as I enjoy wearing the curmudgeon hat from time to time, I've still enjoyed some of the newer games. Maybe they haven't replaced my old favorites completely, but they still ranked up there pretty highly.
So what about you? What do you think about games released since, oh, let's say 2004. Let's make 2004 the cutoff. Five years. So:
What was the best PC RPG to be released in the last five years?
How about the best console RPG, if you have an opinion?
What's been the best *indie* RPG released in the last five years?
Why was it the best?
These questions will be on your final exam....
Labels: Roleplaying Games
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Best mass-market PC RPG: Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer. Lots of dialog, plenty of meaningful skill checks, and a setting that's somewhat more exotic than the Sword Coast.
Best console RPG: Fallout 3, but that's not saying too much. Bethesda's slowly learning how to make interesting quests, but there were far too few and far too much jarring stupidity (Moira, Three Dog, Nuka-Cola girl, the much-hated ending).
Best indie RPG: I'd probably have to say Eschalon. It was a breath of fresh air technically, artistically, and in design. I'm eagerly looking forward to Book 2. Now all we need is to get Jeff Vogel using a similar engine...
Best console RPG: Fallout 3, but that's not saying too much. Bethesda's slowly learning how to make interesting quests, but there were far too few and far too much jarring stupidity (Moira, Three Dog, Nuka-Cola girl, the much-hated ending).
Best indie RPG: I'd probably have to say Eschalon. It was a breath of fresh air technically, artistically, and in design. I'm eagerly looking forward to Book 2. Now all we need is to get Jeff Vogel using a similar engine...
Very difficult question Coyote. I have not been captivated by new RPGs to the extent that I was by things like Ultama 7, morrowind,or the first 2 fallouts.
But then I remembered the Gem that was Silent Storm: Sentinels. It's Got deep turn-based combat and good class development. Both it and its predecessor had branching story lines, but in Sentinels you were given more actual roll playing. (I think that there was 1 conversation not in the base in the original Silent Storm). All in WW2 - take that elves and hobbits (just kidding).
Best console RPG: disgaea 2 (I sure do love stat heavy turn based strategy/tactics)
Indie is hard too- torn between echelon 1 or depths of peril.
But then I remembered the Gem that was Silent Storm: Sentinels. It's Got deep turn-based combat and good class development. Both it and its predecessor had branching story lines, but in Sentinels you were given more actual roll playing. (I think that there was 1 conversation not in the base in the original Silent Storm). All in WW2 - take that elves and hobbits (just kidding).
Best console RPG: disgaea 2 (I sure do love stat heavy turn based strategy/tactics)
Indie is hard too- torn between echelon 1 or depths of peril.
Best PC RPG: Fallout 3.
@Anon: Bethesda's games have always been about exploration, not questing. So if you're not into exploration, then you're probably going to be disappointed. As for "jarring stupidity", I have no idea what you're talking about, so... Yeah, maybe you should have just said you didn't really like the game and left it at that.
Best console RPG: There are some that look really cool, but since I don't own a console... =(
Best indie RPG: Of the few demos that I've tried, Depths of Peril seemed the best. But honestly, none really seemed interesting or fun enough for me to want to actually purchase and play them.
@Anon: Bethesda's games have always been about exploration, not questing. So if you're not into exploration, then you're probably going to be disappointed. As for "jarring stupidity", I have no idea what you're talking about, so... Yeah, maybe you should have just said you didn't really like the game and left it at that.
Best console RPG: There are some that look really cool, but since I don't own a console... =(
Best indie RPG: Of the few demos that I've tried, Depths of Peril seemed the best. But honestly, none really seemed interesting or fun enough for me to want to actually purchase and play them.
What was the best PC RPG to be released in the last five years?
Lord of the Rings Online. Okay, technically it's a MMORPG, but it's still an RPG. They did a superb job creating new content including places and names, adventures and events occurring outside the scope of the original plot. I look forward to seeing where it goes with each expansion.
How about the best console RPG, if you have an opinion?
Mass Effect is good, it's been awhile since I've enjoyed an original space opera setting. Bioware's stuff is too linear though; I prefer real moral and ethical issues over "angel or bastard" choices.
What's been the best *indie* RPG released in the last five years?
Eschalon Book 1. While some of it was a little TOO old-school for me, like rolling ability scores, it was definitely a nice return to that classic game feel.
Lord of the Rings Online. Okay, technically it's a MMORPG, but it's still an RPG. They did a superb job creating new content including places and names, adventures and events occurring outside the scope of the original plot. I look forward to seeing where it goes with each expansion.
How about the best console RPG, if you have an opinion?
Mass Effect is good, it's been awhile since I've enjoyed an original space opera setting. Bioware's stuff is too linear though; I prefer real moral and ethical issues over "angel or bastard" choices.
What's been the best *indie* RPG released in the last five years?
Eschalon Book 1. While some of it was a little TOO old-school for me, like rolling ability scores, it was definitely a nice return to that classic game feel.
Some tough calls.
PC: Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. A technical disaster at times, and mechanically clusmy, but in terms of lore and atmosphere it's still unparalleled almost five years later. The voice acting, the ambience, the creepy factor based based less on bounding-from-the-shadows terrors than on the pressing dread of unseen malevolence -- awesome.
CONSOLE: Man, I can't decide. It's between Persona 3 and Fallout 3 -- two very different games that do their jobs very well.
INDIE: Mount & Blade, if one could consider it an RPG. I certainly play it like one. M&B is obviously weighted more towards gameplay than the context in which that gameplay takes place, as its story is nonexistent, and its thematic power is lacking. But the gameplay it gets so right that everything else just seems to fall into place. It's almost shocking that it took this long for someone to get mounted combat right, or to even attempt it. It's one of the very few RPGs where combat is a genuine joy as opposed to a chore -- you actually WANT that roaming enemy to make contact with you, instead of desperately scrambling to avoid five more minutes of cluttered menus and floating colored numbers.
PC: Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. A technical disaster at times, and mechanically clusmy, but in terms of lore and atmosphere it's still unparalleled almost five years later. The voice acting, the ambience, the creepy factor based based less on bounding-from-the-shadows terrors than on the pressing dread of unseen malevolence -- awesome.
CONSOLE: Man, I can't decide. It's between Persona 3 and Fallout 3 -- two very different games that do their jobs very well.
INDIE: Mount & Blade, if one could consider it an RPG. I certainly play it like one. M&B is obviously weighted more towards gameplay than the context in which that gameplay takes place, as its story is nonexistent, and its thematic power is lacking. But the gameplay it gets so right that everything else just seems to fall into place. It's almost shocking that it took this long for someone to get mounted combat right, or to even attempt it. It's one of the very few RPGs where combat is a genuine joy as opposed to a chore -- you actually WANT that roaming enemy to make contact with you, instead of desperately scrambling to avoid five more minutes of cluttered menus and floating colored numbers.
PC: I might get flamed but I will say WoW has been the best RPG hands down. Now hear me out on this... first off very few games can match the sheer SIZE of WoW both player base and gaming world. The combat and leveling is one of the smoothest I've seen in awhile. The NPC AI is above average. The worlds are detailed. The game has few bugs. I could go on about this but the main thing for me is the simple fact it has gotten sooo many people into the RPG genre that I consider it an icon. Though I don't care too much for WoW anymore I do feel like it has been a power house in the PC RPG industry and for reason that are legitimate.
Console: Eh not sure don't play much console
Indie: Dwarf Fortress
Console: Eh not sure don't play much console
Indie: Dwarf Fortress
I can't answer your questions (especially not when it comes to console games, since I've never played one), but I'd like to note my love for both Dwarf Fortress and Mount&Blade. I'm not sure that I'd call either one an RPG, but they're both better than anything else I've seen for a long time, indie or not!
Note that I'm terrible at "real-time" combat, and pathetic at fighting in Mount&Blade,... but I still love it. Also, note that there's a Custom Settlement mod which sounds like it might make the game more of an RPG. I haven't tried it yet, but I plan to.
Note that I'm terrible at "real-time" combat, and pathetic at fighting in Mount&Blade,... but I still love it. Also, note that there's a Custom Settlement mod which sounds like it might make the game more of an RPG. I haven't tried it yet, but I plan to.
@xenovore: It wasn't a bad game, certainly better than Oblivion, but it was a disappointment compared to the earlier Fallouts or spiritual spinoff Arcanum. It was also way too easy to break the difficulty curve: on my first playthrough, without benefit of GameFAQs, I could one-VATS-kill anything but a behemoth by level 13.
By "jarring stupidity" I refer to, for instance (spoilers):
- High-INT characters frequently get to state the bloody obvious in dialog (e.g., Three Dog "fights the Good Fight with his voice on GNR").
- An ending that was clearly set in stone long before anyone came up with things like NPCs. I'm not opposed to the existence of an ending, nor do I decry the notion of a PC sacrifice, but the sacrifice has to make sense in the context of the game world. When half the companion NPCs (Charon, Fawkes, Sgt. Murderbot) are explicitly immune to radiation and the actual rad levels in the chamber are trivial, the radiation scene ends up making no sense whatsoever.
- Little Lamplight. The entire town. Where are all these kids coming from, why has the town survived for ten years, let alone a hundred, and why did they have to remove the Childkiller karmic title from the earlier games when those brats were clearly asking for a laser rifle in the face?
- Morons in Megaton setting up shop next to a live nuke. That's just criminal NPC stupidity.
@VS: I never played Sentinels, but SS and Hammer & Sickle were both quite entertaining. I don't remember too much actual branching in the original Silent Storm though.
@Metallimoose: I totally forgot about Vampire! That game was magnificent, at least until Hollywood and those [censored] sewers. Santa Monica is one of the better-designed quest hubs I've seen in an RPG.
By "jarring stupidity" I refer to, for instance (spoilers):
- High-INT characters frequently get to state the bloody obvious in dialog (e.g., Three Dog "fights the Good Fight with his voice on GNR").
- An ending that was clearly set in stone long before anyone came up with things like NPCs. I'm not opposed to the existence of an ending, nor do I decry the notion of a PC sacrifice, but the sacrifice has to make sense in the context of the game world. When half the companion NPCs (Charon, Fawkes, Sgt. Murderbot) are explicitly immune to radiation and the actual rad levels in the chamber are trivial, the radiation scene ends up making no sense whatsoever.
- Little Lamplight. The entire town. Where are all these kids coming from, why has the town survived for ten years, let alone a hundred, and why did they have to remove the Childkiller karmic title from the earlier games when those brats were clearly asking for a laser rifle in the face?
- Morons in Megaton setting up shop next to a live nuke. That's just criminal NPC stupidity.
@VS: I never played Sentinels, but SS and Hammer & Sickle were both quite entertaining. I don't remember too much actual branching in the original Silent Storm though.
@Metallimoose: I totally forgot about Vampire! That game was magnificent, at least until Hollywood and those [censored] sewers. Santa Monica is one of the better-designed quest hubs I've seen in an RPG.
I'm glad people mentioned Vampire. That one probably tops my list on the PC.
Depths of Peril comes out on top of the indie RPG list - but ya'll knew that.
On the console front, I'm still undecided as to whether I preferred Persona 3 or Persona 4. I liked the story and environment of P3 more, but I think on the whole P4 was the superior game.
Depths of Peril comes out on top of the indie RPG list - but ya'll knew that.
On the console front, I'm still undecided as to whether I preferred Persona 3 or Persona 4. I liked the story and environment of P3 more, but I think on the whole P4 was the superior game.
Ya know, I've been playing video games for a long while but I have to wonder if I'm the only one who thinks they're getting better. And I'm not talking graphics, either. Ultima 3, 4, and 5 (and Faery Tale Adventure, and Legacy of the Ancients, and etc.) were my favorite RPGs for so long but they're barely playable now. It's endless fighting against random, generic monsters toward little end. Today's games have more meaningful encounters that tie in with the story better. That isn't to say today's games beat yesterday's in every category (just a lot of them), but I like progress.
All that aside, here are my nominations:
Best Indy RPG: Pre-emptively gifting this award to Age of Decadence. The game looks too perfect.
Best Console RPG: GTA San Andreas. Ha!
Best PC RPG: I'm torn, but... I'd probably give it to NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer. Honorable mention might go to Shivering Isles or Vampire: The Masquerade. Had the NWN1: Witch's Wake development lasted until the planned end of the series, I'm sure I'd have given that honorable mention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computer_role-playing_games:_2000_to_2009
All that aside, here are my nominations:
Best Indy RPG: Pre-emptively gifting this award to Age of Decadence. The game looks too perfect.
Best Console RPG: GTA San Andreas. Ha!
Best PC RPG: I'm torn, but... I'd probably give it to NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer. Honorable mention might go to Shivering Isles or Vampire: The Masquerade. Had the NWN1: Witch's Wake development lasted until the planned end of the series, I'm sure I'd have given that honorable mention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computer_role-playing_games:_2000_to_2009
While it is a bit more of an action game than a traditional RPG, I really enjoyed The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess for the Nintendo GameCube.
It was an entertaining game, with a unique and consistent visual style. The game contained puzzles that were challenging, but not overly frustrating. It also had a variety of play styles and mini-games to keep things fresh.
It was an entertaining game, with a unique and consistent visual style. The game contained puzzles that were challenging, but not overly frustrating. It also had a variety of play styles and mini-games to keep things fresh.
Indie - Eschalon Book 1
Console - Persona 3 (Although it's the only console/jRPG I've played in a while)
PC - Can't say I've liked any PC RPGs in awhile. I bet I'd like Fallout3 but PC not powerful enough. Haven't got around to playing morrowind or oblivion.
Console - Persona 3 (Although it's the only console/jRPG I've played in a while)
PC - Can't say I've liked any PC RPGs in awhile. I bet I'd like Fallout3 but PC not powerful enough. Haven't got around to playing morrowind or oblivion.
PC : NeverWinter Nights 2 - Mask Of The Betrayer. Solid conversation and gameplay, nuff said. Its one of the few RPGs I truly got hooked into. I know many people like FO3, but i personally get motion sickness and can't play it much so =(
Console : Only Own the PS2 so, no new games that i know off which knock me off. Loved GoW though :P
Indie : Exit Fate, by the maker of Last Scenario. Truly commercial quality. Excellent ! 2 Thumbs up ! And 2 Of my Big Toes too ! Only gripe is i miss the mini-game of Last Scenario, but then again, that mini-game itself qualifies for a full game itself :P
Console : Only Own the PS2 so, no new games that i know off which knock me off. Loved GoW though :P
Indie : Exit Fate, by the maker of Last Scenario. Truly commercial quality. Excellent ! 2 Thumbs up ! And 2 Of my Big Toes too ! Only gripe is i miss the mini-game of Last Scenario, but then again, that mini-game itself qualifies for a full game itself :P
On PC: I see that everyone here ignored The Witcher - translation problems and some bugs, but definitely a great game. Bioware games are too linear and black/white with nothing in-between. Fallout 3 - would have been a better game in itself, without any relation to the Fallout universe.
On consoles: no idea, I don't own any.
Best Indie: Eschalon - great old-school feeling.
On consoles: no idea, I don't own any.
Best Indie: Eschalon - great old-school feeling.
I was a big fan of Mass Effect for one reason: It replaced the standard RPG combat system, which bores me to tears, with a third-person squad shooter system, which was constantly exciting. So I was able to finish it, something I rarely have time or inclination to do.
Making 2004 the cutoff date for mainstream PC pretty much kills me. I own Oblivion but can't even play oldblivion outside the starter dungeon. I own Dungeon Siege Two, but that is the game that put the nail in coffin on mainstream PC/RPG's for me. Balders Gate 2 was the last big CRPG I really enjoyed playing.
If you count handheld consoles I really like a few, but the winner would be between Disgaea or Suikoden for the DS. Disgaea has a ton of numbers and elements making it fun for hours, and Suikoden has one of the best new story lines I have played through in some time.
Indie is hands down Eschalon. I have played and own a few others, but Eschalon really did a good job modernizing solid old school cRPG fun.
If you count handheld consoles I really like a few, but the winner would be between Disgaea or Suikoden for the DS. Disgaea has a ton of numbers and elements making it fun for hours, and Suikoden has one of the best new story lines I have played through in some time.
Indie is hands down Eschalon. I have played and own a few others, but Eschalon really did a good job modernizing solid old school cRPG fun.
That's kinda WHY I wanted to put in the cutoff date fairly recent. I'm a little partial to old-school RPGs, and we talk about the old classics all the time. But I wanted to see what new favorites people had.
As for me - Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines on the PC (after getting patched up a bit, but it was still pretty buggy), Persona 4 *barely* edging out Persona 3 on the console, and Depths of Peril for the indie scene.
As for me - Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines on the PC (after getting patched up a bit, but it was still pretty buggy), Persona 4 *barely* edging out Persona 3 on the console, and Depths of Peril for the indie scene.
PC RPG : nothing
Sorry, but I just have not touched anything remotely resembling an RPG that was released in the last eight years.
Console RPG : Kingdom Hearts
Yes, an Action RPG. It's the only RPG I've bothered completing since... I can't remember.
I think I just have a preference for the action variety without endless grinding. The movie feel helps the characters and story a lot.
My guess for what truly makes it good is that so many character levels introduce a new ability or increase to an existing one, but you have to choose which ones to use. It provides a constant sense of freshness, makes the characters feel customized, and mitigates that nagging idea that you're just throwing out the old simply because you got the latest thing.
Lastly, for the first time in a Square Enix game, defeating optional bosses is an actual achievement as merely knowing a strategy doesn't guarantee victory. Execution is crucial.
Indie RPG : none
See PC RPGs.
Sorry, but I just have not touched anything remotely resembling an RPG that was released in the last eight years.
Console RPG : Kingdom Hearts
Yes, an Action RPG. It's the only RPG I've bothered completing since... I can't remember.
I think I just have a preference for the action variety without endless grinding. The movie feel helps the characters and story a lot.
My guess for what truly makes it good is that so many character levels introduce a new ability or increase to an existing one, but you have to choose which ones to use. It provides a constant sense of freshness, makes the characters feel customized, and mitigates that nagging idea that you're just throwing out the old simply because you got the latest thing.
Lastly, for the first time in a Square Enix game, defeating optional bosses is an actual achievement as merely knowing a strategy doesn't guarantee victory. Execution is crucial.
Indie RPG : none
See PC RPGs.
Oops. I checked and Kingdom Hearts was released in 2002. Just change my choice to Kingdom Hearts II (2005) and most of my comments will still apply.
Easy category first:
Console RPG: None - once I actually get my English language Zelda to work on my Japanese Wii it will be Zelda as the only one I've played.
Indie: Dwarf Fortress, BG Tutu + mods, Mount&Blade, (if we are counting DF/M&B as RPGs that is) - DF technically has an adventure mode, which is still rudimentary and still kicks butt. I've tried a smattering of other indie RPGs, but other than Jeff Vogel's stuff nothing has stuck with me. BG Tutu converts your BGI game to the BGII engine, lets me install and play the whole shebang easily. I keep coming back to it all the time.
PC RPG: Ummm... well. There were several good ones... but nothing absolutely great.
I loved Vampire: Bloodlines - even with the technical issues. Ambiance is amazing.
I really liked Jade Empire (bought on Steam) - Setting was good, content was good, combat was fun (although not nearly as good as Lugaru or M&B). Final execution was not stellar.
KOTORII was horribly flawed - a lot of potential, and once the fan content fix actually goes live it will probably be worth playing through again.
I still play BGI/BGII... and some NWN so actually paying for another CRPG isn't all that appealing which has been a recurring theme for my gaming habits... Why buy X when Y game from 1991 is more entertaining with the same mechanics...
Console RPG: None - once I actually get my English language Zelda to work on my Japanese Wii it will be Zelda as the only one I've played.
Indie: Dwarf Fortress, BG Tutu + mods, Mount&Blade, (if we are counting DF/M&B as RPGs that is) - DF technically has an adventure mode, which is still rudimentary and still kicks butt. I've tried a smattering of other indie RPGs, but other than Jeff Vogel's stuff nothing has stuck with me. BG Tutu converts your BGI game to the BGII engine, lets me install and play the whole shebang easily. I keep coming back to it all the time.
PC RPG: Ummm... well. There were several good ones... but nothing absolutely great.
I loved Vampire: Bloodlines - even with the technical issues. Ambiance is amazing.
I really liked Jade Empire (bought on Steam) - Setting was good, content was good, combat was fun (although not nearly as good as Lugaru or M&B). Final execution was not stellar.
KOTORII was horribly flawed - a lot of potential, and once the fan content fix actually goes live it will probably be worth playing through again.
I still play BGI/BGII... and some NWN so actually paying for another CRPG isn't all that appealing which has been a recurring theme for my gaming habits... Why buy X when Y game from 1991 is more entertaining with the same mechanics...
PC: I also really liked NWN 2: Mask of the Betrayer like many others here. Interesting story, lots of unique quests and party members.
Console: Mass Effect is my personal favorite (though I played it on PC, not console). Great storyline, great characters and REALLY good voice acting (particularly on the part of the female Shepard). The side quest missions got repetitive and controlling the Mako was annoying, but the awesome storyline more than made up for it.
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Console: Mass Effect is my personal favorite (though I played it on PC, not console). Great storyline, great characters and REALLY good voice acting (particularly on the part of the female Shepard). The side quest missions got repetitive and controlling the Mako was annoying, but the awesome storyline more than made up for it.
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