Tuesday, June 30, 2009
Dungeon Crawlin'
Soldak is now working on a new RPG, one that will fall somewhere in-between the awesome hardcore Depths of Peril, and the much-more-casual "hack-and-slash" RPG-lite Kivi's Underworld (which I also enjoyed, but not nearly as much as Depths of Peril). Steven Peeler is soliciting feedback for the next game from players.
Shamus Young jumped at the opportunity to talk about Dungeon Crawls. What he loves about 'em and would like to see. He brings up the joy of loot, the impossibly crazy dungeons, the ability to choose your character improvements when leveling, and ... well, the lack of story (and possible ways to fix that without screwing up the gameplay).
My personal favorite of the "dungeon crawlers" was actually Ultima Underworld. But it broke heavily with tradition. Some of the brilliant ideas in that game included making all the non-hostile NPCs potential "shops" for trading. Ultima Underworld introduced the concept of what I consider a "survival fantasy" RPG - you were trapped in a dungeon and started out just trying to stay alive, scrounging for food and equipment, making alliances and fighting off threats. THEN you moved on to actually trying to accomplish something. But the game was claustraphobic, and while not plot-heavy (the plot kinda sucked), the setting itself was fascinating. (I note that Arx Fatalis - which I haven't had any chance to play in two weeks - has so far really followed a similar template, which thrills me).
But the take-away here - for me - is that there is exactly as Shamus states in his article: "the (dungeon crawler) genre fell out of favor long before the possibilities had been exhausted." There's much more that could be done with the idea. Jeff Vogel's Avernum series pretty much turned everything into a giant dungeon crawl. A more organic, procedurally-generated, simulationist dungeon crawler along the lines of Dwarf Fortress could be an incredible idea. We've talked about melding the ideas of the classic dungeon crawler and X-Com's combat and missions.
I believe the gaming world can use some more dungeon crawls.
Labels: Roleplaying Games
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 7:39 AM (Permalink)
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I think the lack of genera is related to the fact that the younger audience doesn't enjoy them.
What I'm trying to say is that for the most part anyone under 20 that has never played any type of RPG outside of the gaming world might feel like a dungeon crawler isn't as exciting as the big FPS console game.
I personally love the genera from what I have played. I think for younger people its more of an acquired taste. Just like single player FPS games now... in 10 15 years the will be the dungeon crawlers of today.
Of course by no means is any genera dead its just the fact it's not as well liked among the youth as it was 15 years ago.
So ya if we can find a way to spark interest among the youth and get them to try a good dungeon crawler it might bring some of the popularity back but it might also make the veterans a little upset since I'm sure the game play would have to change so much that older players might not like the drastic changes.
Regardless a good game is a good game no matter what genera. So just make sure it's really fun to play :)
Just my 2cents on the topic.
What I'm trying to say is that for the most part anyone under 20 that has never played any type of RPG outside of the gaming world might feel like a dungeon crawler isn't as exciting as the big FPS console game.
I personally love the genera from what I have played. I think for younger people its more of an acquired taste. Just like single player FPS games now... in 10 15 years the will be the dungeon crawlers of today.
Of course by no means is any genera dead its just the fact it's not as well liked among the youth as it was 15 years ago.
So ya if we can find a way to spark interest among the youth and get them to try a good dungeon crawler it might bring some of the popularity back but it might also make the veterans a little upset since I'm sure the game play would have to change so much that older players might not like the drastic changes.
Regardless a good game is a good game no matter what genera. So just make sure it's really fun to play :)
Just my 2cents on the topic.
I love dungeon crawls, but it all depends on the combat. I'm afraid new games would likely be "real-time," which just doesn't interest me (and is actually unplayable, in some cases, since I'm so bad at it).
So I remember being hugely disappointed when Ultima Underworld was released. And I disliked Arx Fatalis, too. But a dungeon crawl along the lines of X-Com: UFO Defense would be superb (especially if they could work in other parts of that perfect game, not just the combat). Dwarf Fortress is also a ground-breaking game. Mainstream developers could learn a LOT from it.
Admittedly, it's not just the "real-time" combat that bothers me, since I much prefer party-based RPGs. And I could certainly go for Baldur's Gate style games, where you could easily pause to give orders (especially since you could set them up to automatically pause at the end of every round).
Hmm,... I've also noticed on GOG.com the Robinson's Requiem Collection, a couple of old survival games. I'd never heard of them before, but the concept is certainly intriguing. And it sounds like your description of Ultima Underworld, which I never played, as a "survival fantasy" RPG. Fantasy or not (I could see a great science fiction game, where you crash onto an alien planet), this sounds great. But again, for me, it all depends on the combat. (But I may not be entirely consistent in this, since I loved the Elder Scrolls games, at least at the low levels where I could completely outclass my opponents.)
So I remember being hugely disappointed when Ultima Underworld was released. And I disliked Arx Fatalis, too. But a dungeon crawl along the lines of X-Com: UFO Defense would be superb (especially if they could work in other parts of that perfect game, not just the combat). Dwarf Fortress is also a ground-breaking game. Mainstream developers could learn a LOT from it.
Admittedly, it's not just the "real-time" combat that bothers me, since I much prefer party-based RPGs. And I could certainly go for Baldur's Gate style games, where you could easily pause to give orders (especially since you could set them up to automatically pause at the end of every round).
Hmm,... I've also noticed on GOG.com the Robinson's Requiem Collection, a couple of old survival games. I'd never heard of them before, but the concept is certainly intriguing. And it sounds like your description of Ultima Underworld, which I never played, as a "survival fantasy" RPG. Fantasy or not (I could see a great science fiction game, where you crash onto an alien planet), this sounds great. But again, for me, it all depends on the combat. (But I may not be entirely consistent in this, since I loved the Elder Scrolls games, at least at the low levels where I could completely outclass my opponents.)
The Dark Spire for Nintendo DS is a Wizardry ripoff/Dungeon Crawler par excellence. Cash money with stock options.
Class of Heroes for PSP is a wizardry style dungeon crawler. Once you get past the stratospheric learning curve it becomes really fun!
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