Tuesday, February 24, 2009
Wizardy 8 Part XVIII: Parting Shots
So my adventures in Wizardry 8, the "last of the (mainstream) old-school RPGs," has come to an end. It's a good thing that a game doesn't have to be new for me to enjoy it. Plus, I no longer need to kick myself for missing out on it.
Now that I have a full play-through of the game behind me, I've been pondering some of the design successes and issues. This is mainly an exercise for myself as I'm attempting to improve my own indie game-designer chops. But for the three people who might be interested (and, more importantly, share their own thoughts on it), I thought I'd open up my ruminations to the public (scary!) and see where it takes me.
Introduction
The game starts with your party surviving a crash-landing out in the middle of the boonies next to an old monastery now overrun by monsters. RPGs tend to start one of two ways - you either have the big tutorial in your home village, or you are thrown immediately into the action as a full-fledged adventurer. I really prefer the latter, truth be told. While you do end up killing requisite vermin and some slimes right off the bat, which aren't exactly foes of heroic proportions, starting in a "bunny slope" dungeon is preferable to starting in school. It feels like you are accomplishing something instead of just churning away at the tutorial.
Combat
Combat is pretty central to most RPGs, and Wizardry 8 is no exception. Wizardry 8 uses turn-based combat, which I generally prefer over the more popular (nowadays) arcade-style combat.
On paper, Wizardy 8's combat sounds perfect for me. It is very tactical. Positioning, party formation, facing, and movement is critical. Ranged attacks, terrain, spell resistances along spell 'school' lines, buffs, enemy spellcasting, summoning spells, and mixed group of monsters with different strengths and weaknesses promise - and often deliver - a great "thinking man's" RPG combat experience.
There are, unfortunately, a couple of glaring issues that continued to bug be me with combat:
First of all, the differences between monsters were often not particularly noticeable. Instead of having strengths and weaknesses, at higher level monsters typically had strengths and bigger strengths. This was especially noticeable with upgraded "versions" of monsters, or different classes of monsters. The defense were relatively predictable, and there wasn't much of a feeling of "gotchas" or of the enemy working together to form a particularly interesting tactical puzzle most of the time. Boss encounters were an exception, and I felt the earlier stages of the game were better about monsters hitting the party with "signature attacks" than in later levels. It feels like they maybe ran out of ideas later in the game.
Maybe it was simply my own lack of creativity, but that seemed to be a problem for me.
Some possible solutions for this issue would have been:
#1 - Make combat more intense, so that they lasted fewer rounds. Cutting everyone's hit points in half would have helped.
#2 - Don't penalize movement so heavily - it encouraged players and AI to stand in position to launch spells and missiles rather than closing to more interesting range.
#3 - Rely less upon large swarms of monsters, instead emphasizing fewer, stronger monsters. This is a valuable thing to consider whenever doing a turn-based game.
#4 - Have enemies attack in "waves" of more manageable numbers rather rather than as a monolithic massed army.
Environment
The world of Wizardy 8 may not be the most elaborate or well-thought-out world in the history of CRPGs, but it definitely has personality. Many of the locations were extremely distinctive, from the giant tree-city of Trynton to the underwater halls leading to the island of Bayjin, to the Umpani's mountain fortress and the maze-like castle of the Rapax. (Get it? Minotaurs? Mazes? It does make sense...)
The game starts with a hunt for a long-dead hero named Marten. This was a very clever way to get the player interested in the back-story of the planet. I compare this to the Elder Scrolls games, which bombarded me with backstory which I really tried to be interested in, but it didn't work. But because the history is tied in with the current quest in Wizardry 8, all that fluff became USEFUL to me - and therefore interesting. Whether accidental or deliberate, I think it was a stroke of game designer genius. And it helped make the world come alive for me.
Quests
The quests in Wizardy 8, like most RPGs, ran the full range from the pedestrian and downright boring, to the outstanding and memorable.
I also think it's sad that this is noteworthy. Not that this sort of thing is in notoriously short supply. I think it pretty much made Oblivion for me. But I think we've all played those games where objectives must be completed exactly as the designer intended - though sometime with one or two variants, sometimes... usually with lame "total jerk" and "neutral apathetic" options.
I liked the inclusion of a variety of different styles of puzzles and quests - from logic puzzles, to riddles, to adventure-game style inventory puzzles. Sometimes they were infuriating, and I was glad to be living in the age of the Internet to look up the solutions to the ones that stumped me. Like how to get into the retro dungeon.
And admittedly, having your own demonic daughter attack you near the end of the game was something of a first for any game I've ever played. Kudos to whomever came up with that optional plotline. And I hope said designer has since received psychiatric help.
Characters
Some of the characters in Wizardry 8 were better fleshed out than others. Vi Dominae, Z'Ant, Yamir, He'Li, Marten (now a ghost), Sparkle, and even the Dark Savant were pretty well done. The Dark Savant's voice acting sounded more like it was played for comedic effect than being an actual ultimate bad guy. Still, I thought it made him sound a bit more human, so I guess it worked for me.
Another thing I liked was how the party members often had something to say during particular events. One thing I always disliked about older RPGs of this style was that your party members were pretty static collections of stats. It wasn't much, but giving them some amusing or at least interesting things to say really helped bring them to life.
What worked for me, for the characters mentioned above, is that they all had some kind of "hook" that made them stand out and come alive for me. Probably because that stand-out feature encouraged my brain to attribute all kinds of stereotypical or archetypal features to them that weren't necessarily part of their script. This is more of an example of "engaging the player" and enlist their aid as a storyteller.
A Belated Farewell to Wizardry!
Wizardry 8 was, in effect, a swan song for an entire style or sub-genre of RPG - a style which Wizardry 1 was in many ways responsible for creating and popularizing. At least as far as mainstream games have gone. However, you don't have to look very far to see the influence the series (and it's descendants) have had on computer RPGs since then. And - yes, even console RPGs.
The features of this sub-genre that stand out for me include the turn-based combat, the requirement to use teamwork and complimentary skills between multiple party members, the first-person perspective, and the "old-school" emphasis on puzzles and problem-solving rather than just hitting the required marks to complete a quest. I don't know if it was all good - there were definitely some moments in the game when I got stumped and frustrated. In the days before the World Wide Web, that might have been enough to make me quit.
It was a more cerebral RPG than we usually get these days. And it definitely put the "hard" in "hardcore." The extendo-combats were definitely to its detriment from my perspective. Due to my schedule, I rarely had more than 20-30 minutes at a sitting to play games, which made me rule out a Wizardry 8 session on many occasions - especially over the holiday season.
But overall - it was a great game. It is disappointing that the evolution of that style ended with Wizardy 8. I think there was a lot of room to grow and evolve from there. I guess my attitude is unsurprising, since I'm working on a game that's kinda-sorta in that sub-genre myself as an indie project.
But I'm really I hunted this one down and played it. I think I paid more for it through E-Bay than I would have for a brand-new copy (with documentation!) when it was new. But you know what? It was totally worth it. Good and bad, it was a worthy and significant computer RPG.
Labels: Game Design, Wizardry
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Thanks for your always appreciated insightful observations.
I am a physics programmer on the other side of the indie/corporate fence (working at a big gamE compAny), but I have a great interest in the incredible creativity demonstrated by indies. Indies are often taking creative risks that big companies tend to avoid. However, those risks are necessary to make our medium evolve in my opinion.
I fell by chance on your blog some months ago, when I googled about Wizardry 8, on the verge of starting a solo faerie ninja game. It was my third run through the game, and I don't know why, but it feels so good to exist in that universe that I'm compelled to revisit it every couple of years.
If you haven't tried it, I urge you to consider Jagged Alliance 2 as a future game to try. It is a great blend of strategy and rpg, and has a somewhat Wizardry 8 meet Fallout vibe to it.
Characters have a bit more personality in JA2 too, having interesting contextual reactions to the game events.
On a semi-unrelated note, I recently played through Eschalon: book 1, which was a nice rpg that I see as a simplified and very polished Nethack. I really enjoyed the sensation of open world, while not trying to overdo it with too much empty space. On the other hand, the realistic desolation of Fallout 3 is quite fun to explore too.
I am a physics programmer on the other side of the indie/corporate fence (working at a big gamE compAny), but I have a great interest in the incredible creativity demonstrated by indies. Indies are often taking creative risks that big companies tend to avoid. However, those risks are necessary to make our medium evolve in my opinion.
I fell by chance on your blog some months ago, when I googled about Wizardry 8, on the verge of starting a solo faerie ninja game. It was my third run through the game, and I don't know why, but it feels so good to exist in that universe that I'm compelled to revisit it every couple of years.
If you haven't tried it, I urge you to consider Jagged Alliance 2 as a future game to try. It is a great blend of strategy and rpg, and has a somewhat Wizardry 8 meet Fallout vibe to it.
Characters have a bit more personality in JA2 too, having interesting contextual reactions to the game events.
On a semi-unrelated note, I recently played through Eschalon: book 1, which was a nice rpg that I see as a simplified and very polished Nethack. I really enjoyed the sensation of open world, while not trying to overdo it with too much empty space. On the other hand, the realistic desolation of Fallout 3 is quite fun to explore too.
Heh - well, I never worked for THAT particular establishment, though I've worked on games FOR them. I'm also a refugee of the mainstream games biz.
I've been tempted by JA / JA2, since they are now available via GOG.COM for cheap. I just need TIME!
I have Fallout 3, but I haven't even installed it yet (re: Time, above). I'm looking forward to it though. I'm also a fan of Eschalon, Book 1. I like how they went old school with it. I'm also looking forward to the sequel!
I've been tempted by JA / JA2, since they are now available via GOG.COM for cheap. I just need TIME!
I have Fallout 3, but I haven't even installed it yet (re: Time, above). I'm looking forward to it though. I'm also a fan of Eschalon, Book 1. I like how they went old school with it. I'm also looking forward to the sequel!
Unfortunately, I don't have any designer side comments to add, but as a player, I definitely enjoyed all of your posts on the game. I hope you decide to do it with another game that you play soon.
I share your sentiment of "One of the many reasons I love RPGs is because, at the end, I don't feel so much like I've won the game so much as I got to live it.". I think that is what makes RPGs a fun game.
I wonder what you thought of the turn based combat in Wizardry 8 versus some of the "tactics" RPGs on the consoles these days. (Final Fantasy, Disgaea, Jeanne d'Arc, etc). Do you prefer the open, non-grid of Wizardry or do you like the grid-system? I tend to like the grid-system I guess.
I do agree with you that more variety in monsters can be a good thing. Especially the teamwork aspect you mentioned. As I was typing this, I had an example where I thought the concept was tried (to a small success), but then work interrupted and I forgot. I'll edit if I remember.
I share your sentiment of "One of the many reasons I love RPGs is because, at the end, I don't feel so much like I've won the game so much as I got to live it.". I think that is what makes RPGs a fun game.
I wonder what you thought of the turn based combat in Wizardry 8 versus some of the "tactics" RPGs on the consoles these days. (Final Fantasy, Disgaea, Jeanne d'Arc, etc). Do you prefer the open, non-grid of Wizardry or do you like the grid-system? I tend to like the grid-system I guess.
I do agree with you that more variety in monsters can be a good thing. Especially the teamwork aspect you mentioned. As I was typing this, I had an example where I thought the concept was tried (to a small success), but then work interrupted and I forgot. I'll edit if I remember.
I have been following this blog for the last couple of posts (having seen it posted on rpgwatch) and was surprised and happy that other people are still playing wizardry 8!
It made me smile more because I'm currently working my way through it again for the first time in about four years and it's still a blast.
I wonder if you got the fast mod for combat, it just makes the monsters move on the map faster but everything else still takes the same speed. Realistically it shaves off nothing but mentally it helps!
Enough with the rambling. Your adventure to Dominus was an awesome read. Thanks!
It made me smile more because I'm currently working my way through it again for the first time in about four years and it's still a blast.
I wonder if you got the fast mod for combat, it just makes the monsters move on the map faster but everything else still takes the same speed. Realistically it shaves off nothing but mentally it helps!
Enough with the rambling. Your adventure to Dominus was an awesome read. Thanks!
Your playthrough for Wizardry 8 is making me want to get it! I loved Might & Magic 6. This seemed somewhat similar. Now I must have this too!
Ebay you say? Hmm...
Ebay you say? Hmm...
Oh and Mart, I've played Wizardry 8 and am currently playing M&M 6, they're both great games, but of the two Wiz 8 is my fave. :-)
Daniel.
Daniel.
@WW - I really don't WANT to prefer the gridded systems myself, since they are so artificial - but there's a gamer part of me that likes the level of predictability.
@BanalityDUFF - Welcome!I got the fast mod for movement, which helped, but the combat animations & particle effects were still pretty lengthy. The insta-move of the mod really helped a lot, though.
@Mart - Thanks! Hopefully it'll come out soon on GOG.com - I'd love to see this game available for everyone for $6.99 or $9.99. Even if it kinda makes my own investment overpriced.
@BanalityDUFF - Welcome!I got the fast mod for movement, which helped, but the combat animations & particle effects were still pretty lengthy. The insta-move of the mod really helped a lot, though.
@Mart - Thanks! Hopefully it'll come out soon on GOG.com - I'd love to see this game available for everyone for $6.99 or $9.99. Even if it kinda makes my own investment overpriced.
I guess another alternative to a grid system could be what Parasite Eve & Vagrant Story did? It was a free-movement like Wiz8 is, but the character had uh.. "range bubbles" for their attacks. Movement was not a bar that dwindled in combat either, if I remember right.
What a great read, and thank you for your comments. I enjoyed reading this a lot. Your comments on how combat could be approached are particularly good.
I didn't get counseling after the demonic daughter subplot, however. I just kept making games. :)
I designed the levels, quests, story and NPCs. My favorite, fwiw, was probably Balbrak, and my favorite quest was [spoiler alert..........] the one where the Umpani and the T'Rang work things out.
brenda
I didn't get counseling after the demonic daughter subplot, however. I just kept making games. :)
I designed the levels, quests, story and NPCs. My favorite, fwiw, was probably Balbrak, and my favorite quest was [spoiler alert..........] the one where the Umpani and the T'Rang work things out.
brenda
OOoh... you make me jealous.
I absolutely adored the Wizardry series, played em all up until Wiz 7, but around then I got a Mac.
No more Wizardry for me. :(
...wonder if my Intel Mac can run it on Wine now though...
Wizardry is one of those series I keep hoping will continue, but I suspect that isn't going to happen. :(
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I absolutely adored the Wizardry series, played em all up until Wiz 7, but around then I got a Mac.
No more Wizardry for me. :(
...wonder if my Intel Mac can run it on Wine now though...
Wizardry is one of those series I keep hoping will continue, but I suspect that isn't going to happen. :(
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