Thursday, February 05, 2009
Wizardry 8 Part XIV: Storming the Castle
I've had a bit of a hiatus, and I apologize. More on that in the next installment. For those still interested, here's a bit of a summary of my continued explorations of the "old-school" RPG, Wizardry 8. It's a fairly hard-to-find title these days, as the publisher has long since ceased to exist as anything more than a legal entity. But their memory lives on... as do game CDs on a PC.
The Demon Goddess
I made a lot of progress since Part XIII - and somehow thought I'd blogged it all, but evidently I had failed to do so. My bad. And now I have to go from memory.
We used the beckoning stone to summon a gargoyle named El Dorado. He exploded nicely under our combined firepower. Following that, we made our way to the demon-goddess Al-Sedexus. She seemed to debate a bit about what to do with us, but then gave us a quest set our faction so that we would no longer be attacked by Rapax Templars. Go us.
A bit more hunting led us to the courtyard of Castle Rapax.
Storming the Castle
The courtyard started out okay. There were archers along the wall which rained arrows down on us and were hard to kill. That was annoying. Pushing forward a bit more resulted in us getting surrounded by Rapax and attacked by an ever-increasing throng of Rapax.
The main floor of the castle was largely the same story - infuriatingly long combats. Rapax are minotaur-looking beasts which have some of the most infuriatingly boring combat in the known universe. They are - tough. Very tough. Most magic barely touches them. They hit like a ton of bricks. They have hundreds of hit points. And I usually end up fighting them a couple dozen at a time. I blow through most of my magic in each combat. Usually the best spells are buffs, heals, and insanity spells - since if even one or two Rapax berserkers go nuts and begin wailing on their comrades for a couple of rounds, It can shave precious minutes off of an hour-long fight.
The only thing interesting the Rapax have going for them is that they have classes. Which means you have some spellcasters going at it. This usually means putting up an element shield in the first round, as I'll be sitting through about six to eight fireballs every round, plus the occasional Crush.
After literally hours of practically non-stop combat, I made my way to the upper floors. I embarrassed the prince, who I caught in his harem. He fled, and sicced his concubines on me.
Yes, his concubines.
Eventually, sheer tedium and frustration made me flee to the upper floors which were much more interesting - though I had left some halls of the main floor unexplored. The upper halls and the cellar had a lot of interesting things going on, and most of the Rapax were not hostile to me. I guess they were aligned with the templars.
An adventure-game-esque sequence followed. I found myself going through a zoo, hitting the cellar and jail areas, participating in a barroom brawl, discovering that the Rapax King and Queen seemed to be running counter to each others' purposes (in fact, it looks like the King was trying to arrange the death of his dear wife... I do not know whether or not he succeeded). After finding a lot of secret portals and bizarre items with strange uses, I managed to open up a teleporter near the King's chamber that opened up a portal to the inside of the Dark Savant's tower back in Arnika.
Dah Bomb
Among other things, the Dark Savant's tower houses a bomb capable of destroying the entire world. For such a big deal, the tower was kind of a let-down. There wasn't much there - just robots serving the Dark Savant, and a combination lock to deactivate the bomb.
At this point, I teleported back to the Rapax Castle, and fought a few gazillion more Rapax, before getting bored and leaving back the way I came.
Reflecting on Design
The castle sequence is a major set-piece to the game, but it is fatally flawed on the main floor by some really tedious combat - not unlike Rapax Rift and the Bayjin Shallows. The designers wisely set it up so that the upper levels (and cellar) were not nearly so bad - but it does make you wonder how you could slaughter something like 400 Rapax on the main floor (and how does the castle HOLD that many???) and almost nobody bats an eye about it one floor up.
But I really did enjoy myself a lot on the upper floor. The combats were few but a little more interesting (the zoo animals were largely creatures I'd fought before, but at least they broke up the monotony a bit). And the locations and notes gave a lot of clues as to what had been going on for the last few years. It helped make the world come alive.
The Savant Tower was something of a letdown. Here's a hint to game designers: When you introduce something early in the game that's clearly a major goal for later, you really ought to put some more effort into making it cool. Visually, it was cool, but from a gameplay perspective, there wasn't much to do there. Unless I totally overlooked something.
I have already whined enough about how boring the Rapax are to fight. But this illustrates something about enemy design at which I have personally failed many times in the past. It is EASY to make a bigger, tougher, harder opponent. Beef up their armor and hitpoints, throw in a solid claw / claw/ bite attack (an old-school D&D reference), crank the magic resistance up to 11, and viola! A super-challenging monster!
And a super-boring one, too. Oh, sure, if used sparingly, they can be fun, and even interesting in their own way. But ultimately, what makes enemies interesting to a player are the same things that make them nightmarish for a programmer - unique behaviors and abilities (or combinations of the same).
If you look at some of the most popular (and feared) monsters in Dungeons & Dragons, they usually fall into this category. Dragons are not only ultra-tough, but also have the classic breath weapon and flying ability (and, often, spells, an aura of fear, and other special abilities). Mind Flayers with their uber-nasty psionic blast and the whole brain-eating thing. Beholders with their ray-shooting eye stalks (and the anti-magic cone from their primary eye). Vampires and specters with the level-draining ability. Medusas (yes, in D&D, Medusa is an entire race, not just an entity) with the gaze that turns adventurers into stone. Mummies with their mummy-rot and fear aura. Dopplegangers who can assume the form and behavior of friends. Harpies with their charm powers. And various kinds of demons with their spell resistance and other special abilities.
Those special abilities are what makes them interesting. Wizardry 8 is no exception. The psionic abilities of the Rynjin were infuriating, but it made them stand out... except for the fact that practically everything in the Bayjin area was also psionic. Nessie - I still haven't taken HER down yet. But she was not boring. Creatures that swallow my party members whole are rare, scary, but definitely not boring.
Giving the Rapax some character classes and abilities in Wizardry 8 was definitely a step in the right direction. Frankly, after killing hundreds of these things in a row, they'd be getting pretty tiresome no matter how cool their design. Persona 3 did a great job of doling out strengths, weaknesses, and special abilities amongst opponents - and the expansion did an even better job of putting them together in interesting combinations that took some (minor) tactical planning to work through. And those still got pretty boring after a while.
So take my criticism with a grain of salt - or a small Siberian salt mine...
More Wizardry 8 Play-Through Entries:
Part I: So a Samuari, a Valkyrie, and a Bishop Walk Into a Bar...
Part II: Running the Gauntlet
Part III: Vi Domina Tricks
Part IV: Arnika Bank - No Safer Than Under the Mattress
Part V: In Fear of Little Naked Winged Women
Part VI: Old-School Goes Old-School
Part VII: Ratts!
Part VIII: Dances With Rhinos
Part IX: My Duplicity Has a Price
Part X: Missing Men and Mutant Frogs
Part XI: Swimming With the Psi-Sharks
Part XII: Desperately Seeking Marten
Part XIII: Lucky Thirteen, Unlucky Rapax
Part XIV: Storming the Castle
Labels: Mainstream Games, retro, Roleplaying Games, Wizardry
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 6:11 AM (Permalink)
Comments:
Links to this post:
<< Home
I'd imagine the Savant Tower would have been cooler had they had the time/resources to work on it. I hate the castle, but gotta love Ferro and the custom items. Good luck on Nessie.
# posted by 
: February 05, 2009 11:41 AM
: February 05, 2009 11:41 AM
We'll see if I get back to Nessie. After causing me so much grief, it would be nice to get some payback. :)
The more I read about this game, the more interesting it becomes and the more certain that if I played it I'd do have nothing but frustration.
I love older RPGs, but I can't stand long turn based battles. More than 2-3minutes and I start to become quite disgruntled.
:)
I love older RPGs, but I can't stand long turn based battles. More than 2-3minutes and I start to become quite disgruntled.
:)
I actually go a little longer than that - I think around 3-5 minutes is just about perfect for the average, non-boss, non-major combat (and that's ideally about where I'd like Frayed Knights combat to be). Just long enough to sink your teeth into some tactics and risk-management, but not so long that you get bored.
Curiously enough - that's about how long most turn-based jRPG combats last, I think. But I was a fan of that time length long before I played my first jRPG.
I don't mind the occasional extra-long combat, either... a boss fight that takes 20-30 minutes actually doesn't bug me at all. Strangely enough, in Wizardry 8, the boss fights tend to take less time than the random patrols.
Even when I've sped the movement speed to lightning-fast on each enemy, they take up about 5-10 seconds each to act, and with 16 enemies that's about two minutes PER ROUND just for the AI to act. Add another minute or so for my own commands, and that's about 3 minutes per round. Since a lot of the higher-level monsters are pretty tough, combats may go for 10 or more rounds.... so you are talking a half-hour or more.
You can imagine what it's like with 30 monsters, and 20 rounds of combat (just to grind through them all).
But with a boss, you may only be fighting one to five enemy. So 10 rounds of combat only takes around 10-15 minutes.
And really - that is the #1 complaint I have about the game. It's a pretty major flaw, but the game is pretty awesome outside of that. It really just depends on how much tolerance you have for the long fights. If they don't bug you, the game is really, really awesome. And deep.
Curiously enough - that's about how long most turn-based jRPG combats last, I think. But I was a fan of that time length long before I played my first jRPG.
I don't mind the occasional extra-long combat, either... a boss fight that takes 20-30 minutes actually doesn't bug me at all. Strangely enough, in Wizardry 8, the boss fights tend to take less time than the random patrols.
Even when I've sped the movement speed to lightning-fast on each enemy, they take up about 5-10 seconds each to act, and with 16 enemies that's about two minutes PER ROUND just for the AI to act. Add another minute or so for my own commands, and that's about 3 minutes per round. Since a lot of the higher-level monsters are pretty tough, combats may go for 10 or more rounds.... so you are talking a half-hour or more.
You can imagine what it's like with 30 monsters, and 20 rounds of combat (just to grind through them all).
But with a boss, you may only be fighting one to five enemy. So 10 rounds of combat only takes around 10-15 minutes.
And really - that is the #1 complaint I have about the game. It's a pretty major flaw, but the game is pretty awesome outside of that. It really just depends on how much tolerance you have for the long fights. If they don't bug you, the game is really, really awesome. And deep.
It's a fairly hard-to-find title these days, as the publisher has long since ceased to exist as anything more than a legal entity. But their memory lives on... as do game CDs on a PC.
[Insert critical remark about DRM and online-activation here]
[Insert critical remark about DRM and online-activation here]
Yeah, when I talk about my worries about DRM and retro-gaming, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
"But we promise to remove DRM... someday."
Yeah, right. When you've had to lay off most of your developers and everyone else is wondering who's gonna be the last one to turn off the lights, the LAST thing you'll be thinking about is, "Who should create and test the patch to remove this DRM on a game that's no longer making any money?"
"But we promise to remove DRM... someday."
Yeah, right. When you've had to lay off most of your developers and everyone else is wondering who's gonna be the last one to turn off the lights, the LAST thing you'll be thinking about is, "Who should create and test the patch to remove this DRM on a game that's no longer making any money?"
I don't remember being bored at all by the Rapax fights, but I do remember being frustrated by Nessie (even though I, thankfully, was able to defeat her reasonably fast).
I'm playing Persona 3 at the moment and I'm somewhat disappointed by the game. After roughly 60 hours, I'm at floor 160 and still haven't found more than a few truly interesting and/or challenging enemies to fight. I've even had to start listening to a lecture series on the American Revolution while grinding in Tartarus to alleviate some of the boredom and make the time spent with the game more intellectually stimulating. ;)
I'm playing Persona 3 at the moment and I'm somewhat disappointed by the game. After roughly 60 hours, I'm at floor 160 and still haven't found more than a few truly interesting and/or challenging enemies to fight. I've even had to start listening to a lecture series on the American Revolution while grinding in Tartarus to alleviate some of the boredom and make the time spent with the game more intellectually stimulating. ;)
You have a lot more patience than I do! I played awhile when I first got the game, then re-installed it a few months ago and started from the beginning again. Lots of fun! But the frequent, and LONG, combat got old. I could have used some 'adventure-game-esque' parts. (I never made it to the Rapax Castle, or only just to peek inside the door, I think.)
I enjoy the exploration and discovery in these gameworlds, and building my characters. I like the stories, big and small. And I like the strategy and tactics of party-based combat (which is why adventure games, themselves, don't usually do much for me). But in general, combat is too frequent in these games, and it gets especially boring if it takes such a long time. Of course, without frequent combat, these games would be MUCH shorter, so I guess I see why they do it.
Still, it's just not much FUN after awhile.
I enjoy the exploration and discovery in these gameworlds, and building my characters. I like the stories, big and small. And I like the strategy and tactics of party-based combat (which is why adventure games, themselves, don't usually do much for me). But in general, combat is too frequent in these games, and it gets especially boring if it takes such a long time. Of course, without frequent combat, these games would be MUCH shorter, so I guess I see why they do it.
Still, it's just not much FUN after awhile.
@Demiath - The expansion for Persona 3 ("The Answer") does a better job with the combat and mixing enemies with complimentary abilities or contrasting weaknesses. But I'd still not recommend it to you, as it takes the weakest part of Persona 3 (the combat / grind), and makes it pretty much the whole game.
The combats were at least (usually) short. Only the boss fights went more than a couple of minutes (in the case of the final boss - a LOT more...)
@WCG - I think it's the frequency combined with the length. I love a great deal about Wiz 8 - and up until the last 5 levels or so it's been (mostly) awesome. But when the fights end up taking up all but 10 minutes of every hour I play, it gets frustrating.
But hopefully worth it.
The combats were at least (usually) short. Only the boss fights went more than a couple of minutes (in the case of the final boss - a LOT more...)
@WCG - I think it's the frequency combined with the length. I love a great deal about Wiz 8 - and up until the last 5 levels or so it's been (mostly) awesome. But when the fights end up taking up all but 10 minutes of every hour I play, it gets frustrating.
But hopefully worth it.
I pooped myself in my pants the first time I saw Nessie, she was... beautiful.
Ah yes I miss those titanic battles, First round running like hell for a wall so I could place my mages backs against it and then turning with grim determination ;-)
I as a player abhor instant death/insanity spells (They're cheesy and not fair) but in Wiz8, after I was trounced a couple of times, the gloves came off.
Death cloud is imho the most powerful spell in the game, death spell for seven rounds,no amount of firepower, esp when dealing with Rapaxii can equal that.
The fight against the evil sorceress was one of the best rpg battles I have ever fought, yeah it took an hour to fight but I spent endless hours planning round for round my attacks and defenses, truly an experience.
I don't think you could play Wiz8 with out the mini mod they released which made mobs moves instantly, nothing was more painful than watching them slowly crawling across the vast battlefield.
That I suppose was what made this game legendary for me and tripled its playability (like Diablo 2 for that matter) player released content (a few good mods were made) and eventually an editor.
Ah yes I miss those titanic battles, First round running like hell for a wall so I could place my mages backs against it and then turning with grim determination ;-)
I as a player abhor instant death/insanity spells (They're cheesy and not fair) but in Wiz8, after I was trounced a couple of times, the gloves came off.
Death cloud is imho the most powerful spell in the game, death spell for seven rounds,no amount of firepower, esp when dealing with Rapaxii can equal that.
The fight against the evil sorceress was one of the best rpg battles I have ever fought, yeah it took an hour to fight but I spent endless hours planning round for round my attacks and defenses, truly an experience.
I don't think you could play Wiz8 with out the mini mod they released which made mobs moves instantly, nothing was more painful than watching them slowly crawling across the vast battlefield.
That I suppose was what made this game legendary for me and tripled its playability (like Diablo 2 for that matter) player released content (a few good mods were made) and eventually an editor.
# posted by : February 08, 2009 9:12 PM
: February 08, 2009 9:12 PM
You know, it's been remarkable reading this blow-by-blow account after all these years. It brings back memories of things I've practically forgotten were in there. I sure hope you finish as I can't wait to hear about the rest :).
Cheers,
Linda Currie
(Wiz 8 Producer/Co-designer)
Cheers,
Linda Currie
(Wiz 8 Producer/Co-designer)
# posted by : March 31, 2009 2:21 PM
: March 31, 2009 2:21 PM
Linda -
I did! Just failed to update the links on all posts. But if you wanna catch the whole thing, complaints and praise alike, I have all Wiz-related posts here:
Rampant Coyote's Wizardry-Related Yammerings
I did! Just failed to update the links on all posts. But if you wanna catch the whole thing, complaints and praise alike, I have all Wiz-related posts here:
Rampant Coyote's Wizardry-Related Yammerings
I actually just finished the game last night. I too was in the mood to play a 'retro' game, and I've always loved what I refer to as "Accountant RPG's". And what I mean by that are rpg's that are 'stat heavy', rather than relying upon you actually moving and swinging your character's sword or aiming a bow, everything is based upon stats. I was obsessed about maximizing my characters, and finding the best items and stat combos, etc..
I played it mostly like you, but I wiped out the templars, so never got the storyline regarding my demon daughter, even though I did see her and fight her. I think I did everything else, including the retro dungeons.
The game did get frustrating, but this was mostly in the beginning where I went into the swamps much too soon, and was constantly being out classed.
If I were to do it again, I know how I'd play it differently (like not have my fighter use axes), and focus my Samurai on speed so that he could swing more often (gaining exp faster). Getting the infinity helms made some of my fighters much better magic users, but too late in the game. And of course, I'd use alchemy to make money so as to buy spells through books than wait to go up levels.
All in all, a great game, that deserves to be recognized as such, now that games like Oblivion (which is good, don't get me wrong) are all about the moving and aiming rather than the details statistics.
I played it mostly like you, but I wiped out the templars, so never got the storyline regarding my demon daughter, even though I did see her and fight her. I think I did everything else, including the retro dungeons.
The game did get frustrating, but this was mostly in the beginning where I went into the swamps much too soon, and was constantly being out classed.
If I were to do it again, I know how I'd play it differently (like not have my fighter use axes), and focus my Samurai on speed so that he could swing more often (gaining exp faster). Getting the infinity helms made some of my fighters much better magic users, but too late in the game. And of course, I'd use alchemy to make money so as to buy spells through books than wait to go up levels.
All in all, a great game, that deserves to be recognized as such, now that games like Oblivion (which is good, don't get me wrong) are all about the moving and aiming rather than the details statistics.
Reading this blog prompted me to fire up Wiz8 again. Was fun to read of your adventures and I'm having a blast going through this game again. It's been years since I played it and it's just as much fun now as the first time. :)
I killed Nessie. The trick is to get to a rock alcove near her without actualy being in combat with her, and then start combat. It wont say you're fighting anything, so set your characters to cast Soul and Element shields, and bless, and click run. then run out from behind the rock and right up to nessie. If you are lucky, like I was, you will knock her out, and then wail on her till she dies :D. Her death animation is cool
# posted by : August 26, 2009 12:40 PM
: August 26, 2009 12:40 PM
I love this game! nice blog, played through 6 full games myself. Lots of stuff you seem to have missed, but the game does take a while. I have completed it in around 70 hours at lvl. 18, as well as a few hundred at lvl 40 (capped). *minor spoiler* I recommend taking on a temple in one of the wildernesses soon. You sound like your at a good lvl. for it. There is much to explore in the wilderness including a dungeon meant for somewhat lower lvl. characters (still would be fun)*spoiler over*. Been playing this game since my brother showed it to me in 2003. Nice job finding Martin as early as you did.
Hope you continue as there are multiple highly impressive areas left for you to explore.
Did you get the Cane of Corpus from Barlone? BEST WEAPON EVER, not too overpowered even if you can use it (that is until a lvl 16 faerie ninja kills the end boss in one hit and is the first person to attack), and who makes a faerie ninja that hasn't killed Barlone before?
Oh, and just a warning, it is possible to kill the end boss and get to a cinematic stage and proceed to die (not fun in iron man :(
Sorry for the ranting, but I love this game
Post a Comment
Hope you continue as there are multiple highly impressive areas left for you to explore.
Did you get the Cane of Corpus from Barlone? BEST WEAPON EVER, not too overpowered even if you can use it (that is until a lvl 16 faerie ninja kills the end boss in one hit and is the first person to attack), and who makes a faerie ninja that hasn't killed Barlone before?
Oh, and just a warning, it is possible to kill the end boss and get to a cinematic stage and proceed to die (not fun in iron man :(
Sorry for the ranting, but I love this game
# posted by : September 15, 2009 6:05 PM
: September 15, 2009 6:05 PMLinks to this post:
<< Home
