Friday, November 07, 2008
Wizardry 8 Part XIII - Lucky Thirteen, Unlucky Rapax
This is a continuation of my experiences delving for the first time into the now-classic computer RPG, Wizardry 8. I expected this series to go about nine or ten posts, but we're now on post thirteen. So here we go:
Fifty-five minutes, fourteen seconds. That's how long this particular random patrol encounter took. I thought my complaining about the excessively long combats in Wizardry 8 might have been exaggerated. I wasn't really sure how long these fights were taking - I was more focused on winning than keeping time. So I timed this one.
The battle was an encounter with a patrol - consisting of, as you can see, twenty-nine enemy ... uh, Rapaxes. Rapaxi? I have no idea what the plural of Rapax is supposed to be. I started the stopwatch function on my watch when the battle began, paused it when I had to pick up my daughter from her play practice, and resumed it when I sat back down to finish the battle.
The battle took nearly an hour. That would be an unpardonably long boss battle. But for a run-of-the-mill fight against wandering monsters several levels below me? Ye gods! No wonder turn-based combat gets a bad rap.
I nearly lost the battle about forty minutes in. Having to replay that much of the game (since you can't save in mid-combat) would have probably made me quit for the night. That's happened before. Fortunately, the monsters decided to attack my water elemental at that point (or each other, succumbing to the effects of insanity I kept hitting them with) long enough for me to resurrect one dead party member and to "heal all."
Almost worse than the loss of health was the entire party running out of stamina very quickly during the battle - and both of my primary casters having to take a quick swig of Magic Nectar to restore magic points about two-thirds of the way through the battle (just to have enough mana to cast Rest All to keep everyone from taking a nap at the same time!)The screenshot to the right is from about that point - right after the resurrection, when I managed to fear enough rapax (I think I'll use that for both singular and plural) to thin the crowd so I could actually stage a comeback.
So that's my excuse for not having enough progress to report this time, and I'm sticking to it. Too many combats like this one!
So I finally found the wilderness section and Rapax Rift. That was a feat unto itself, especially when facing fire-breathing flying snakes in groups of four that are several levels higher than me. 25th level flying serpents or some such nonsense. While they may have been the same level as Nessie, they weren't nearly as tough, though they were hard and exhausting to bring down. I could usually manage two fights in a row before needing to rest, but resting in the wilderness was nearly impossible.
Since I have three characters who can now cast spells to set and return to portals, I would have one character set a portal at my current location, and then have my other caster teleport us directly back to the tavern in Arnika - right in front of Vi Dominae, after she left us again when we approached Rapax Rift. I keep coming back and waving to her, just to prove to her that we're still alive and let her know what a chicken she is. Then we rest up, and teleport back to our previous location. It saves on long, nasty, brutal combats that end up with us dying because we don't have any magic left when enemies stumble across us in our sleep.
Yeah, the game can be a little brutal.
Rapax Rift is a land of deadly lava floes. Besides patrols of high-level Rapax berserkers, warlocks, initiates, priestesses, and archers, there is a temple complex and some occasional groups of "fire ants." Which aren't like real world fire ants at all. These fire ants are literally on fire, walk through lava, and are the size of dogs.
The other scary monster here is the Lava Lord, who is (or should I say, was) sort of an unholy enforcer-sort summoned by the priestesses to take human - or, rather, Rapax - sacrifices on behalf of some priestess / demoness / goddess named Al-Sedexus. We found several prisoners who were pretty much past usefulness, dreading the moment when they would be made the sacrifices to this Lava Lord guy.
We found another prisoner, long on information and short on spirit, who was in the process of becoming the next sacrifice. He'd had a mark placed upon him by the Staff of Ash by Al-Sedexus, which would allow the Lava Lord to eventually just burn him from the inside out. The only way to remove that mark was to use that staff to erase it. We unlocked his door, but he refused to budge without having the mark removed, as it would only hasten the inevitable. On our way out, the Lava Lord materialized from a river of lava, walked over to the prison / sacrificial area - walking right past us - roared a bit, and then returned from whence he came.
Much blundering about and re-fighting patrols led us to a spot where the supports of a cave next to a lava-puddle were weak and sagging. Knocking out a brace let the roof tumble in, which covered the lava-puddle and providing us with a step up to the other side, taking us inside a nicely-carpeted temple area. We battled rapax patrols and priestesses to the top with some teleporters. And a key.
Next, we took another route to a trapped lava trap. Fortunately, I saved first. While I avoided dying to the trap, I found myself well-and-truly trapped with no exit, walking around the edge of a depression which had filled with lava. I restored, found the secret mechanism to deactivate the trap (which was itself trapped!), and mad the area navigable. Proceeding forward, I ran into the high priestess, a delightful Rapax who kept us entertained by casting instant-death spells on us while her minions kept healing her (and each other) and hexing us. We killed her, and found something called a beckoning stone.
We returned to the guy who was going to be sacrificed, who took the staff to remove the mark, let us know to go north to Rapax castle, and let us know how to use the beckoning stone (I think) to summon a beast that would let us into Al-Sedexus's lair.
That should be fun!
Taking Design Notes
The puzzles and fixed encounters in this area were actually pretty neat and well-designed. The non-interactive sequence when the Lava Lord first appeared was perhaps a little heavy-handed, but it served to make him seem impressive and scary. There's a lot to like.
But really, there's only one story here, and that is the length of combats. Now, I happen to be someone who likes a good, meaty, turn-based encounter. And I'm a fan of games with big tactical combat components, like the X-Com series, where a battle (which is the focus of the entire game) can take a couple of hours. But this is way, way too much in an RPG, and an achilles heel to what was otherwise a pretty awesome game. It reminded me of the final fight with Sephiroth in Final Fantasy VII, where he'd invoke a spell with minute-long non-interruptable cinematic every other round. Kinda cool once, kinda making you want to throw your controller through the TV screen the twentieth time.
If I find myself opening a door and finding four groups of 99 berserkers in this game, I'm going to be really, really disappointed.
More Wizardry 8 Play-Through Entries:
Part I: So a Samuari, a Valkyrie, and a Bishop Walk Into a Bar...
Part II: Running the Gauntlet
Part III: Vi Domina Tricks
Part IV: Arnika Bank - No Safer Than Under the Mattress
Part V: In Fear of Little Naked Winged Women
Part VI: Old-School Goes Old-School
Part VII: Ratts!
Part VIII: Dances With Rhinos
Part IX: My Duplicity Has a Price
Part X: Missing Men and Mutant Frogs
Part XI: Swimming With the Psi-Sharks
Part XII: Desperately Seeking Marten
Part XIII: Lucky Thirteen, Unlucky Rapax
Part XIV: Storming the Castle
Labels: retro, Roleplaying Games, Wizardry
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You are using the combat-speedup patch, right? It leave the game entirely unchanged except for the speed at which monsters move in combat.
I remember fights in Wiz8 being long, but nearly an hour is hideous!
I remember fights in Wiz8 being long, but nearly an hour is hideous!
I admire your perseverance; I would have tossed the game in the trash bin (or at least, deleted it off my hard drive) around part 3 or so. =P
In fact, thanks to you, I now know to never touch this game with a 10' pole...
In fact, thanks to you, I now know to never touch this game with a 10' pole...
@anonymous - That only affects monster movements, from what I could see. That maybe accounted for 10% - 20% of the time. More in the first half, I guess, but very little towards the end. I've got 'em turned up 5x, but a lot of the time is just spent waiting on their attacks and spells.
@xenovore - yeah, I know, you are an action gamer. I really do like the game, but the combat durations are a near-fatal flaw. I love a good, meaty, turn-based combat, but that's going overboard by an order of magnitude.
@xenovore - yeah, I know, you are an action gamer. I really do like the game, but the combat durations are a near-fatal flaw. I love a good, meaty, turn-based combat, but that's going overboard by an order of magnitude.
I admire your perseverance;
Seconded!
I would have tossed the game in the trash bin (or at least, deleted it off my hard drive) around part 3 or so. =P
Which is exactly what I did several years ago.
In no way I would waste such an ungodly amount of time to a random encounter!
Several minutes? Yes, if they don't happen every other step. But nearly one hour?
Well, I guess 29 designers of the game will come out of their hiding now and have a perfectly logical explanation for this.
At least you have something to do in this hour - not so with the notorious Final Fantasy sequences...
Seconded!
I would have tossed the game in the trash bin (or at least, deleted it off my hard drive) around part 3 or so. =P
Which is exactly what I did several years ago.
In no way I would waste such an ungodly amount of time to a random encounter!
Several minutes? Yes, if they don't happen every other step. But nearly one hour?
Well, I guess 29 designers of the game will come out of their hiding now and have a perfectly logical explanation for this.
At least you have something to do in this hour - not so with the notorious Final Fantasy sequences...
I think there is space in the RPG market for long, detailed combat sequences. Final Fantasy Tactics is one example in that general direction.
But you're really looking at two problems here:
(1) The random encounters are still chewing up a lot of time in their own right, and even the longer fights are not particularly compelling -- just long.
(2) The duration of the encounter is not primarily filled with interesting tactical decision... instead it's filed with repetitive attack commands and extended cinematics.
For this design ethos to really work, each encounter needs to be as carefully and specifically designed as a scenario in a RTS.
But you're really looking at two problems here:
(1) The random encounters are still chewing up a lot of time in their own right, and even the longer fights are not particularly compelling -- just long.
(2) The duration of the encounter is not primarily filled with interesting tactical decision... instead it's filed with repetitive attack commands and extended cinematics.
For this design ethos to really work, each encounter needs to be as carefully and specifically designed as a scenario in a RTS.
I'm guessing you must have went there with a relatively mid-level party - as soon as you get spells like earthquake (earth school) & asphyxiation (air school) which have a mass instant-death effect, life becomes much easier!
also, try combining different potions, bombs, powders etc if you have a character with decent alchemy ability since you can make some very powerful Pandemonim bombs.. i think there may also be a few which cast a death cloud effect in the rapax rift too, in the priestess' rooms
also, try combining different potions, bombs, powders etc if you have a character with decent alchemy ability since you can make some very powerful Pandemonim bombs.. i think there may also be a few which cast a death cloud effect in the rapax rift too, in the priestess' rooms
@Anonymous - I have Asphyxiation. I used it about three times in the fifty-five minute combat. I think the first one killed two enemies, and the other two didn't do a thing. It just isn't nearly as effective (at least against Rapax) as Insanity or Blizzard. Thanks for the alchemy tip - My bishop unfortunately has a low alchemy, but I'll see what she can do.
@Justin - Oh, hey, I agree. A really detailed tactical RPG - played out kinda like X-Com - would actually be a really interesting possibility, too. Woah. That gets me thinking there - scary! But again, that would be a difference in approaches. With something like that, I'd expect far fewer combats, but they would be the centerpiece of the game.
@Justin - Oh, hey, I agree. A really detailed tactical RPG - played out kinda like X-Com - would actually be a really interesting possibility, too. Woah. That gets me thinking there - scary! But again, that would be a difference in approaches. With something like that, I'd expect far fewer combats, but they would be the centerpiece of the game.
Alchemy recipes i can remember off the top of my head:
- medium heal & stamina for pickmeup potion (relatively easy to make even at low levels)
- ice bomb & fire bomb for canned elemental (cast at level 6 iirc)
- flash powder & sneeze powder (i think) for pandemonium
- concussion powder & dust of dessication for skeleton powder ( instant death cast at level 6, but i think this needs VERY high alchemy)
- medium heal & stamina for pickmeup potion (relatively easy to make even at low levels)
- ice bomb & fire bomb for canned elemental (cast at level 6 iirc)
- flash powder & sneeze powder (i think) for pandemonium
- concussion powder & dust of dessication for skeleton powder ( instant death cast at level 6, but i think this needs VERY high alchemy)
Detailed tactical RPGs are common in consoles - Final Fantasy Tactics regular and Advance, the Disgaea series, the Ogre Battle series, etc. They are all awesome without bounds and I can't get my head around why they've never caught on in PC gaming.
As to W8, you are now a bit ahead of where I ever got in the game, the length of the combats made me give it up quite a bit before this point.
As to W8, you are now a bit ahead of where I ever got in the game, the length of the combats made me give it up quite a bit before this point.
I just discovered your blog. It's been fun reading your Wizardry 8 posts. I played the game years ago (but not completely - I almost never finish an RPG), then loaded it up again a few months ago, when I realized I couldn't remember the first thing about it. I recognized my experiences in your posts.
It was lots of fun, and I got a lot further this time, but I quit just before entering Bayjin. It was getting a bit tedious. But as I say, that's nothing new for me. I think that Wasteland and Grim Fandango might be the only two games I've EVER finished.
But I really miss the old turn-based, party-based RPG's. Yeah, I enjoyed Morrowind and Oblivion, but I'm terrible at 'real-time' combat, so I can only play at low level (sneaking around with a bow). And I love the strategy and the tactics involved with leading a party of characters. I miss that.
It was lots of fun, and I got a lot further this time, but I quit just before entering Bayjin. It was getting a bit tedious. But as I say, that's nothing new for me. I think that Wasteland and Grim Fandango might be the only two games I've EVER finished.
But I really miss the old turn-based, party-based RPG's. Yeah, I enjoyed Morrowind and Oblivion, but I'm terrible at 'real-time' combat, so I can only play at low level (sneaking around with a bow). And I love the strategy and the tactics involved with leading a party of characters. I miss that.
It might sound silly, but I'm actually proud to have finished Wizardry 8. I bought it the week it was released (in Canada), but I didn't go very far back then. It was only after I found myself with huge amounts of free time that I started over and focused on finishing it. I also learned how to "properly" fight the enemies, i.e. use lots of status-effects. I don't think the battles necessarily get shorter, but toward the latter parts of the game, you definitely have a better chance of surviving them.
I really like your articles, entertaining and interesting, thanks.
Though I have to say the combat bashing is getting very annoying. Your comparison of tactical combat with jrpg-like minutes long was pretty strange too.
I'm not saying Wizardry 8 doesn't have long fights, that would be crazy. But I think the outcry I have seen here and other places is mostly due to changing gaming habits. I mean, who really plays turn based rpgs anymore? Maybe X-Com would strain your patience today to? I find it hard to believe you had more than a selected few hours long fights in that game.
This is a bit rant like, apologies. Just a little pissed at what I perceive as way exaggerated complaining that seems to crop up in every W8 discussion.
Though I have to say the combat bashing is getting very annoying. Your comparison of tactical combat with jrpg-like minutes long was pretty strange too.
I'm not saying Wizardry 8 doesn't have long fights, that would be crazy. But I think the outcry I have seen here and other places is mostly due to changing gaming habits. I mean, who really plays turn based rpgs anymore? Maybe X-Com would strain your patience today to? I find it hard to believe you had more than a selected few hours long fights in that game.
This is a bit rant like, apologies. Just a little pissed at what I perceive as way exaggerated complaining that seems to crop up in every W8 discussion.
To add, I admit that rapax really pushed my perseverance, partly due to me kind of sucking at adventure-like puzzles, and also that I admire you for still completing the game. And again thanks for this series.
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