Friday, July 18, 2008
Hey! You Got Your Science Fiction In My Fantasy!
Back at the birth of RPGs (generally acknowledged to be around 1974, the time of the first publication of the D&D rules), science fiction and fantasy were really not very distinct. I mean, Anne McCaffrey insisted that her Dragonriders of Pern series was science fiction, not fantasy. You had the covers of Heavy Metal magazine, which often consisted of a scantily-armored chick with a sword and a blaster. And even the movie Star Wars, possibly the greatest impact science fiction had on our culture, was really as much fantasy as science fiction.
And back in the 70's and early 80's, we seemed cool with that. Well, okay, I was only a kid, and wouldn't have understood the difference much otherwise. But it seemed that Dungeons & Dragons games often had a mix of powered armor, vibro-blades, and laser rifles muddying the waters of homebrewed Middle Earths. On the computer front, the early Ultima games mixed hover cars, space ships, evil computers, and time travel pretty freely.
Somewhere in the mid 80's (subjective time), the dividing line came down. Fantasy, as a genre, began standing on its own on the shelves of the bookstores, instead of being lumped into the anemic "science fiction" shelves. People started drawing a hard line between what constituted fantasy and what was required of science fiction. The term "speculative fiction" had been coined to include both genres, and began coming into vogue sometime after that to prevent the terms for the specific genres from getting misused with broader meanings.
And suddenly, even in RPGs, it was no longer cool to stick fusion-powered armor in your fantasy games. Well, most of them. We still had the genre-melding games like Shadowrun and stuff designed specifically around that concept. But there was mostly an assumption that anyone mixing the two genres was ignorant of the important distinction.
Because, you know, if that sword is electrified by a fusion battery or something in its hilt, it's SF! But if it is electrified by magic, it's F! Silly people!
And I also note that around that time, Ultima IV excised the last of the trappings of science fiction from the world.
I was among those purists, and I remember getting annoyed with Wizardry 7's mix of space ships and robots and hoverbikes and shock-rods with my good ol' sword and sorcery. Although I think part of my resentment came more from not getting access to said devices early in the game, when all my enemies had them. But I got over it. Somehow, I managed to swallow Final Fantasy VII's magic-and-mecha environment. And I, like millions of other fanboys across the globe, got really pissed when Lucas tried to throw that midi-chlorian crap into Star Wars to try and make it more like "real" SF.
It seems that in terms of popular fiction, we're starting to get a blend. I say this mainly as a person who stays ignorant of the trends in publishing and fandom, and mainly as some guy who sleepily notes some impact on the pop-culture he participates in - because if it wasn't for pop-culture, I'd probably have no culture at all.
But it seems like "modern fantasy" (AKA urban fantasy) is gaining steam as a subgenre. Think Harry Potter, Harry Dresden, Supernatural, Heroes, etc. We've got magic and high-speed personal computers mixing freely now - something which would have subjected authors in the early 1970s to the kinds of criticism reserved for the likes of McCaffrey. But high-speed personal computers are no longer science fiction.
But could some kind of limited family reunion be far behind? Might it no longer be taboo to have wizards on space ships? We had vampires wielding ultraviolet laser guns in a Blade movie a few years back... oh, wait. That movie sucked. Nevermind.
What about computer RPGs? Besides Final Fantasy's typical genre-blending, we do have some urban fantasy games on the market. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines is one not-too-recent game that comes to mind, though the science fiction elements were pretty limited and standard for a first-person shooter. Oh, wait, it was an RPG. Fallout was ostensibly science fiction, though I think it fell into the Star Wars zone as "science fantasy." I expect more of the same with the upcoming Fallout 3, which I hope to enjoy down to it's last pseudo-science drop.
So what do you think? Do you draw a hard line between fantasy and science fiction, and do you get a bad taste in your mouth when one crosses over into your RPG or Adventure game preferences? Does it have to be a "golem" rather than a "robot" in your fantasy RPG? Or are you more of a mix-and-match type of person, who doesn't mind finding out that dragons came from a genetic engineering experiment on a crashed space ship millennia ago?
Labels: Geek Life
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 8:27 AM (Permalink)
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I don't care much about the labels, as long as the world is coherent. I get a bit annoyed with worlds which are exactly like the real world or a historical version thereof, despite the ubiquitous presence of things which would rock our current/past way of life to the core.
Things like true AI, or magical healing, or objective good and evil.
Not that a huge effort needs to go into such things to make an enjoyable game world, but a nod towards them is always appreciated. Having both magic and sufficiently advanced tech in the same setting is fine in my book, but you probably have to work at least twice as hard to make something feels like a world rather than a horrible mish-mash.
Things like true AI, or magical healing, or objective good and evil.
Not that a huge effort needs to go into such things to make an enjoyable game world, but a nod towards them is always appreciated. Having both magic and sufficiently advanced tech in the same setting is fine in my book, but you probably have to work at least twice as hard to make something feels like a world rather than a horrible mish-mash.
As long as the world is coherent, I don't mind mixing fantasy with sci-fi.
I'm reminded of the game Arcanum... that game, I believe, had a good mix of magic and technology.
I'm reminded of the game Arcanum... that game, I believe, had a good mix of magic and technology.
I quite like mixing the two. My next RPG after SoW is probably going to be a Shadowrun-like near-future dystopian cyber-fantasy.
Fallout was ostensibly science fiction, though I think it fell into the Star Wars zone as "science fantasy."
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Huh? Why?
I personally rather dislike mixing magic and sci-fi. I don't mind psychic abilites in either, provided they don't somehow justify fireball-throwing in a sci-fi environment.
I also don't entirely mind some technology in fantasy, provided it's not too modern. Say, some gearworks, robot-like golems or machines blending magic and technology.
Shadowrun is my ultimate anti-scenario. Don't just throw in anything that sounds cool. That's like a cook throwing a bunch of ingredients into a pot hoping a decent meal will come out.
Just give me Cyberpunk 2020.
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Huh? Why?
I personally rather dislike mixing magic and sci-fi. I don't mind psychic abilites in either, provided they don't somehow justify fireball-throwing in a sci-fi environment.
I also don't entirely mind some technology in fantasy, provided it's not too modern. Say, some gearworks, robot-like golems or machines blending magic and technology.
Shadowrun is my ultimate anti-scenario. Don't just throw in anything that sounds cool. That's like a cook throwing a bunch of ingredients into a pot hoping a decent meal will come out.
Just give me Cyberpunk 2020.
As long as it all make sense, it's fine with me.
Because, you see, if you want, you can *still* run around in plate armor and a two-handed sword. But you won't see neither US soldiers nor iraqis in those. And the reason isn't because plate mail is *so* last millennium, but because it isn't effective.
Let's face it. You don't need lasers nanobots and nuclear fusion to make a sword effective - plain steel does just fine. The problem is getting close enough without a gapng hole or ten in your chest.
Because, you see, if you want, you can *still* run around in plate armor and a two-handed sword. But you won't see neither US soldiers nor iraqis in those. And the reason isn't because plate mail is *so* last millennium, but because it isn't effective.
Let's face it. You don't need lasers nanobots and nuclear fusion to make a sword effective - plain steel does just fine. The problem is getting close enough without a gapng hole or ten in your chest.
Claw: Due to the magical effects of radiation on the world. But I totally agree with you about Cyberpunk 2020. I never got into Shadowrun, personally, but I'm friends with a lot of people who did.
Also - I just wanted to add that Scorpia added her $0.02 - and she's definitely on the side of keeping the two separated:
Scorpia: Purist That I Am
Also - I just wanted to add that Scorpia added her $0.02 - and she's definitely on the side of keeping the two separated:
Scorpia: Purist That I Am
I wouldn't call the effects of radiation in Fallout - not to mention that most of the mutation is justified by FEV - magical.
I mean, if there were places where the soil is liquified and boils at minus a hundred degrees, or where gravitation is negated, I'd agree that it appears magical.
But from what I've seen it stays well within the limits of what is generally considered Sci-Fi.
Giantism, Mutants, radioactive slime, that's not mixing Sci-Fi with the Fantasy genre.
Unless you meant to apply Rod Serling's definition of "science fantasy"? Because it sure didn't sound that way to me.
I mean, if there were places where the soil is liquified and boils at minus a hundred degrees, or where gravitation is negated, I'd agree that it appears magical.
But from what I've seen it stays well within the limits of what is generally considered Sci-Fi.
Giantism, Mutants, radioactive slime, that's not mixing Sci-Fi with the Fantasy genre.
Unless you meant to apply Rod Serling's definition of "science fantasy"? Because it sure didn't sound that way to me.
I remember reading stories like On a Pale Horse in my younger years that mixed science and fantasy elements freely without the "oil and water" issues. I wonder what Lord of the Rings done in SteamPunk would be like.
I'm fine with a mix, as long as it seems to make sense in the world environment.
Although I *do* think that Anne McCaffrey's Pern series *was* SF, not fantasy. Sure, it has dragons with special abilities, but they're defined as psionic abilities (just like in the Talent series). Other than the psionics there's no "magic", and in general the world is defined in scientific terms.
Although I *do* think that Anne McCaffrey's Pern series *was* SF, not fantasy. Sure, it has dragons with special abilities, but they're defined as psionic abilities (just like in the Talent series). Other than the psionics there's no "magic", and in general the world is defined in scientific terms.
I like my technology distinguishable from magic. Having something that works exactly like magic but turns out to be technology - or vice versa - this, I can't stand, but pretty much anything else is cool with me.
I think I like any setting that works that I haven't seen before. But then, I like any setting that works.
I think I like any setting that works that I haven't seen before. But then, I like any setting that works.
I'll agree with Matthew - I don't like the "bait & switch" where magic turns out to be technology. Unless it is presented really, really well, and is sort of the theme of the story. Otherwise, it's a cheap shot.
Ultimately, I don't think it matters whether it is Science Fiction, Fantasy, or a mixture of both as long as the content makes sense within the bounds of the finctional world that is presented to the player.
Pertaining to the wish for a blending of fiction and Sci-fi...
I have been building a world (mostly in text and in 2d paper art) that blends the two worlds. Because of some environmental factors, both worlds can exist in one. I am reticent to jump into what those factors are on the open range, but I would like to share my ideas with someone in the field.
Imagine a world where all the pseudo-physical sciences were accurate for something like half the time, allowing for the building of tools and semi-modern weapons. Then something happens in the environment of the world randomly (or timed... this element is an issue of whether it will be a single or mmo game) that ends puts a random variable on the....
well, I've gone too far for this post.
The other half of the time is for the casters of the fantastic.
I want to say everything in this post but I wish to protect my fiction at least a little.
If your interested in hearing more, drop me a line.
~Bosaku~
bizflorida@yahoo.com
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I have been building a world (mostly in text and in 2d paper art) that blends the two worlds. Because of some environmental factors, both worlds can exist in one. I am reticent to jump into what those factors are on the open range, but I would like to share my ideas with someone in the field.
Imagine a world where all the pseudo-physical sciences were accurate for something like half the time, allowing for the building of tools and semi-modern weapons. Then something happens in the environment of the world randomly (or timed... this element is an issue of whether it will be a single or mmo game) that ends puts a random variable on the....
well, I've gone too far for this post.
The other half of the time is for the casters of the fantastic.
I want to say everything in this post but I wish to protect my fiction at least a little.
If your interested in hearing more, drop me a line.
~Bosaku~
bizflorida@yahoo.com
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