Tuesday, January 08, 2008
RPG Design: Random Loot
When the third edition of Dungeons & Dragons came out, one of the things I loved to play with rolling up random loot. I enjoyed it even more when some enterprising folks like Jamis Buck and Aaron Sherman decided to turn it into a web-based automated process. Plug in the numbers, and see what kinds of nifty things came up.
You can try it yourself HERE.
I found it a source of amusement in Neverwinter Nights when I was designing modules for it, too. Maybe it's the whole gambling mentality. Pull the handle and see what you get. I loved being surprised.
And so it may surprise you that I'm not such a fan of random loot in single-player CRPGs. It may be because I have Charlie Brown's luck when I open chests. Assuming you live in some place where they never show "It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown," the kids go trick-or-treating on Halloween, and while all the other kids keep getting candy, he keeps getting a rock. That's pretty much me in the wild of a game with random loot.
When playing Eschalon: Book 1 (which has random loot mixed with fixed loot), I found myself surprised at just how many empty treasure chests there were in the game. Well, empty or near-empty. I think I found some used chewing gum and a six-month old issue of Newsweek or something in them. Or at least the medieval fantasy equivalents. But in my brain, it might as well have been a single kid-sized shoelace.
After a while of this, getting several empties in a row, I finally realized that I was getting unlucky draws with the random treasure generation. I finally took matters into my own hands, and began saving before opening a chest. I was AMAZED at just how much loot could be found in a chest that previously contained nothing but half-used Kleenexes and bits of string. On the third try or so, I'd find magical gear, potions, lockpicks (one can never have too many lockpicks, particularly since the town's Wal*Mart doesn't stock such things), and other nifty things that completely swayed the balance of power over to the dark side of the Force. Which was to say, me.
Since I play every game with the jaded, cynical mindset of a professional developer (and *gasp* designer), I immediately seized upon the "Save-Game" problem here, and figured out the true reason for having random loot: With this simple game mechanic, Basilisk Games encourages players to re-play the same chest-opening sequence dozens of times, thus extending the gameplay by HOURS!!!!!
Okay, that was probably not the reason they put it in. Actually, there are three reasons that I can think of for putting in random loot into a single-player RPG:
#1 - For the amusement of the developers. Because it's fun to have the game you've built actually do something you can't predict once in a while.
#2 - For replayability. Especially if everything else is randomized in your game (like Diablo)
#3 - For class-balance / customization sanity. Because you are going to hear from all the angry bard-players when all they ever loot is fighter / magic-user / cleric gear that you pre-stocked. The random smattering of loot (possibly biased towards the player's chosen class / focus) hopefully keeps people happy.
(UPDATE!) #4 - Because your loot lists are very incomplete in early content development, and the designers want to make sure of a semi-even distribution of stuff without having to go back and fix the loot in the earlier parts of the game.
(ANOTHER UPDATE) #5 - To keep walkthroughs and spoiler sites from giving away TOO much.
While #1 isn't a great rationale for having it (well, no better than the sneaky underhanded "extended gameplay" reason), the other two are probably valid. With #3 - even with the class-based bias to loot reputedly in Neverwinter Nights, I seemed to almost never get any rogue-specific gear in the original campaign. It's a good thing I kept "Use Magic Device" maxed, or I'd never have been able to use anything in the game. Still couldn't figure out what to do with all those rings of wizardry and suits of +5 Plate Mail of Uber-Awesome Two-Handed Sword Devastation the game kept handing me (when it wasn't handing me ... rocks). Except I was able to sell them to the store so I could purchase a +1 dagger and +2 leather armor. Go rogue leetness!
If the RPG isn't really intended to be replayed (but who is going to admit they game isn't very replayable, I wonder?), and has either pre-defined characters (such as a jRPG game, like Aveyond), or is more party-based (or both, like the upcoming Frayed Knights), then it's not such a big deal. In fact, it may be a hinderance to players like me with Charlie Brown's rock-acquisition ability.
(Vaguely) related Things Man Was Not Meant To Understand
* Ye Olde Saved Game Debate
* RPG Design: What Am I Going to Do With All This Money?
* RPG Design: Magic Entitlement and Price Tags
* Oblivion: The Flower-Picking Simulator
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Labels: Game Design, Roleplaying Games
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 8:00 AM (Permalink)
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That saving and loading problem in Eschalon is quite annoying really as it encourages bad gameplay. Not that I've played the game myself.
First time I ran across this in a game was Wizardry 7. I would just save and load a game to open a chest repeatedly until I got what I wanted. Wizardry 8 fixed this somewhat by saving the seed (or loot) for the map whenever it was created. However, some gluttons for punishment would save the game right before a map entrance and make a beeline for high value chests (such as one specific chest that could have the best shield in the game).
The game had a few other issues like that too. Like saving and loading for pickpocketing/trap disarming/lockpicking. I think that was patched somewhat in a later version though.
First time I ran across this in a game was Wizardry 7. I would just save and load a game to open a chest repeatedly until I got what I wanted. Wizardry 8 fixed this somewhat by saving the seed (or loot) for the map whenever it was created. However, some gluttons for punishment would save the game right before a map entrance and make a beeline for high value chests (such as one specific chest that could have the best shield in the game).
The game had a few other issues like that too. Like saving and loading for pickpocketing/trap disarming/lockpicking. I think that was patched somewhat in a later version though.
# posted by 
: January 08, 2008 11:32 AM
: January 08, 2008 11:32 AM
Yeah, that kinda makes me wonder what the point was of having random loot. I mean, 95% of the players are going to open that particular chest only ONCE... so the random stuff may as well be fixed.
Though the thought did make me come up with a couple more reasons for having random loot. Besides reason #0: Because the designers are feeling lazy and don't want to have to think about treasure distribution.
Though the thought did make me come up with a couple more reasons for having random loot. Besides reason #0: Because the designers are feeling lazy and don't want to have to think about treasure distribution.
I've been doing the save/load thing with chests in Eschalon too. At one point I spent some time on one particular chest paying attention to the items that came up. What really bugged me was not the random aspect of it, but the fact that the total value of the chest's items could vary so widely. Knowing that a chest that initially contains only a handful of tin rings could potentially, eventually, cough up a diamond the size of my head is what keeps me hitting the button. If, on the other hand, I knew that the chest full of tin rings will only ever have items worth a total of 5 or 6 gold, I'd take what I got the first time. It's not the random loot so much as the random value that's the problem.
# posted by : January 08, 2008 4:04 PM
: January 08, 2008 4:04 PM
I've been considering something along those lines for Frayed Knights, too (my only good reason for putting anything like that in Frayed Knights would be reason #4, I think...) - something with a consistent value.
But then what do you do with that gold? Do I do the whole magic-economy thing and have +1 swords for sale by the Miller's son? Farmers who can't apparently rescue their cat out of a try but who have an infinite supply of gold to buy your crap from you?
I'm still working all that out. Actually, I'm working it out in a hurry, because I started working on the village of Ardin last night.
But then what do you do with that gold? Do I do the whole magic-economy thing and have +1 swords for sale by the Miller's son? Farmers who can't apparently rescue their cat out of a try but who have an infinite supply of gold to buy your crap from you?
I'm still working all that out. Actually, I'm working it out in a hurry, because I started working on the village of Ardin last night.
Yep, like many other aspects of a game, loot distribution can require serious thought and effort to make it good.
Making each chest give up a pre-set value is a pretty good idea. The more random system they're using clearly has major disadvantages.
With some effort, though, you could improve the system. For example, allocate a fixed amount of loot-value to each realm of the game. When the player first enters the realm, divide it up randomly among certain chests and save the information. It looks random, but there's no way for the player to overcome the balancing you built into the realm's loot limit. Best of both worlds. More work for developers, though.
Making each chest give up a pre-set value is a pretty good idea. The more random system they're using clearly has major disadvantages.
With some effort, though, you could improve the system. For example, allocate a fixed amount of loot-value to each realm of the game. When the player first enters the realm, divide it up randomly among certain chests and save the information. It looks random, but there's no way for the player to overcome the balancing you built into the realm's loot limit. Best of both worlds. More work for developers, though.
To Coyote;
perhaps the mundane stuff could be purchased at towns where you could also sell some of your cheaper magical items or donate them for drama stars.
Since there are going to be other adventuring parties around (if I remember correctly) they could be used to trade magical items.
Just some ideas. I probably haven't thought it all the way through.
For random loot I like what Josh said. Even if you had each chest set to a certain amount of value the player may keep reloading at the "good" chest because they know they can get a good item out of it and ignore the "bad" chests for the most part.
perhaps the mundane stuff could be purchased at towns where you could also sell some of your cheaper magical items or donate them for drama stars.
Since there are going to be other adventuring parties around (if I remember correctly) they could be used to trade magical items.
Just some ideas. I probably haven't thought it all the way through.
For random loot I like what Josh said. Even if you had each chest set to a certain amount of value the player may keep reloading at the "good" chest because they know they can get a good item out of it and ignore the "bad" chests for the most part.
# posted by : January 09, 2008 8:36 AM
: January 09, 2008 8:36 AM
Another reason random loot is done is rooted in old vintage systems... it takes up less memory to store and doesn't require persistent records. If you are using your "map" to store objects, then pretty much the only information you have on the chest is that it is, in fact, a chest. Fixed contents or even random factors would require a separate data structure.
For my own vintage CRPG, I decided, even though it's more trouble, to have fixed loot and the file records will update to remove them from the map so that you can't "re-loot". I want to push the players to explore and keep moving, not stay in one place.
For my own vintage CRPG, I decided, even though it's more trouble, to have fixed loot and the file records will update to remove them from the map so that you can't "re-loot". I want to push the players to explore and keep moving, not stay in one place.
Some really great ideas here.
And now it's making me think of coming up with random loot tables for pre-set values, and letting every non-hostile NPC in the game be a potential trader partner (a la Ultima Underworld and Fallout).
Which would be, like, more work 'n stuff.
Dang it.
And now it's making me think of coming up with random loot tables for pre-set values, and letting every non-hostile NPC in the game be a potential trader partner (a la Ultima Underworld and Fallout).
Which would be, like, more work 'n stuff.
Dang it.
I like random loot, because of how unpredictible it is. it's nice to find the +7 blessed rustproof excailaber off a random monster. but you can't make it too extreme unless you want to risk a so-called disk one nuke when people find out that they can get excailber in the very first dungeon.
# posted by : January 09, 2008 2:46 PM
: January 09, 2008 2:46 PM
In the last comment, I have to disagree about it being nice to find phenomenal equipment on random monsters. It's the mirror image of another complaint, not being able to take equipment that the monster obviously has -- if the monster had something better, why didn't he use it in battle?
That's one of the reasons it drives me nuts to find healing potions on monsters. Yeah, they're great to have, but what's the point in carrying these potions if they're never used? One of the things I liked about Eschalon is that the characters can learn to make their own potions out of things they find. (If only those things were more common...)
But of course, random loot has its own virtues. IMO, if your AI can handle it, it would be better to roll up random loot at the *beginning* of the battle, so that the monsters can actually use the items, as was apparently the case in Fallout. (Of course, then you get players cursing them over it: "Argh! That was supposed to be *my* healing potion!" but hey, that's life)
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That's one of the reasons it drives me nuts to find healing potions on monsters. Yeah, they're great to have, but what's the point in carrying these potions if they're never used? One of the things I liked about Eschalon is that the characters can learn to make their own potions out of things they find. (If only those things were more common...)
But of course, random loot has its own virtues. IMO, if your AI can handle it, it would be better to roll up random loot at the *beginning* of the battle, so that the monsters can actually use the items, as was apparently the case in Fallout. (Of course, then you get players cursing them over it: "Argh! That was supposed to be *my* healing potion!" but hey, that's life)
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