Thursday, December 27, 2007
RPG Design - Items And Economy
My post from Monday generated quite a few comments and discussion, including some out-of-band discussion. One question is simply --- what does it matter in a non-massively-multiplayer environment? How much does the simple rule in 3rd edition D&D really matter about the availability of items being limited only by their value?
I had noticed, when developing magic items for Neverwinter Nights, that the price for said items did not go down when their usage was restricted. A +4 Sword that could only be used by chaotic-evil fighters and reduced the wielders intelligence by 2 points had exactly the same price as a standard +4 Sword without restrictions or the accompanying penalties.Under the dice-and-paper rules, those swords cost 32,315 gold pieces, and could be purchased and sold in any large city (population 12,001+) freely.
That doesn't make sense. If players could sell at full price, this would mean that they could simply "trade in" the crippled sword for an unrestricted version. In the dice & paper rules, there is a very short section on the possible roleplaying ramifications for selling cursed items, but there's still the abstraction of the rules to contend with.
But - on the flip side - if an item restricted by class and / or race does drop the value of the item, worse things happen. Since there is no scarcity, this would mean that players would simply purchase all magic items restricted to their own class and race. If I am a Lawful Good Fighter, I may as well purchase all lawful good / fighter equipment at the local Magic R Us for half the cost of general equipment. It's not - according to the rules - any more difficult to sell, and it would have the added benefit of being more difficult for a foe to take it and use it against me.
In fact, if a very skilled character could sell items at near 100% of their value, she could trade in that one +4 Sword for two +4 Swords with restrictions at that rate.
So one system is broken, but the other is broken even worse.
In a single player / single-character game with no crafting or modification of magic items, and a very simple item purchase / sales system, this probably isn't too big of a deal. At least not one that isn't resolved in a couple of levels.
One solution is to do as Eschalon: Book 1 does, and maintain a system of scarcity. Nothing is in infinite supply (that I have seen) in shops. However, this can be an irritation to some players, as it means you cannot simply stock up on enough healing potions to muscle through all but the most instantly lethal encounters.
Another solution, adopted by almost all RPGs, is to put a hard gap between the player's best sale price and best purchase price. If this is the only limiting factor, stores will also have to either always offer consistent prices, or to be within consistent ranges. There are a few tales of CRPGs out there that were subject to an "infinite supply of gold" exploit where the player could purchase an infinite number of items in store 1, and sell them for a profit in store 2.
Fans of Elite-style games may note that this "exploit" is a key gameplay element if there is a scarcity of supply and / or demand, and if there is some risk in travelling between the two stores.
No single-player RPG that I'm aware of has attempted a sophisticated and dynamic modeling of the economy, and I am not sure how sophisticated this has become on the MMO side, either. But it would make sense if a town began "ramping up" arrow production if demand for arrows increased because of the player's appetite for shooting things. Although that could also mean an increase in price, as well...
... And that's really not something I'd really appreciate or even notice as a player. Cool, maybe, but probably not worth the effort. But the bottom line is that without scarcity, you don't have an economy. Buying and selling is a pretty key element in most RPGs. The greater the complexity of the trade system (crafting, variable sales / purchase prices, etc), the more accurate the simulation of the economy needs to be, or the more hard-coded limitations need to be imposed to keep things reasonable.
And in this respect, I'm gonna have to say that the standard "book rules" for D&D 3.x fail that test.
(Vaguely) related tales of vitual moolah:
* RPG Design: Magic Entitlements and Pricetags
* When Magic Becomes Mundane in RPGs
* Why I Gave Up On Dungeons & Dragons Online
* RPG Design: What Am I Going To Do With All This Money?
Talkin' Trash and Treasure On the Forum.
Labels: Game Design, Roleplaying Games
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 3:04 PM (Permalink)
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Should magic items be sellable?
I mean, obviously, if you can find it, you can try to sell it. But should they be *reliably* sellable, in anything trying to resemble a fantasy world? How do you know that the gem the adventurer is trying to peddle to you is actually the fabled Red Eye of Zuul, with the power to cure a virgin's hernia? How do you know the dusty sword on the shelf at the shop is actually +4 vs giantkind?
What if selling magical items worked more like gambling items in Diablo/Fate? You know it's magical. There's a value placed on it, and MAYBE a description, but absolutely no guarantee that the item does anything resembling the description. Maybe it's a great item. Maybe it's not.
This could go both ways - a player could have to work to convince a shopkeeper that their magical item is worth anything at all. Obviously, for SOME items you can just demonstrate.... but if you're claiming to have the Head of Vecna in your bag, the shopkeeper may be rightfully dubious. Your charisma and fame (possibly tied to level) will go a long way towards helping you convince someone that this really IS a powerful sword... and if you've got a good enough reputation and haven't repeatedly bilked the stores, you might be able to sell your "Sword of Glowing In The Dark" as a Holy Avenger for a vast markup...
I mean, obviously, if you can find it, you can try to sell it. But should they be *reliably* sellable, in anything trying to resemble a fantasy world? How do you know that the gem the adventurer is trying to peddle to you is actually the fabled Red Eye of Zuul, with the power to cure a virgin's hernia? How do you know the dusty sword on the shelf at the shop is actually +4 vs giantkind?
What if selling magical items worked more like gambling items in Diablo/Fate? You know it's magical. There's a value placed on it, and MAYBE a description, but absolutely no guarantee that the item does anything resembling the description. Maybe it's a great item. Maybe it's not.
This could go both ways - a player could have to work to convince a shopkeeper that their magical item is worth anything at all. Obviously, for SOME items you can just demonstrate.... but if you're claiming to have the Head of Vecna in your bag, the shopkeeper may be rightfully dubious. Your charisma and fame (possibly tied to level) will go a long way towards helping you convince someone that this really IS a powerful sword... and if you've got a good enough reputation and haven't repeatedly bilked the stores, you might be able to sell your "Sword of Glowing In The Dark" as a Holy Avenger for a vast markup...
(Which leaves me envisioning a comedy scene where the adventurer sells a shiny thing with a line of hooey to a shopkeeper who, upon gaining the shiny thing, crows triumphantly and claims the item is even_more_valuable_thing that he got at a great bargain from the foolish adventurer... who might then try to buy it back!)
That's the flip side - not only should (IMO) the magic-item supply be limited, but those interested in purchasing the items might also be few in number.
I was just reading a Conan story where part of his problem was finding someone to sell his ill-gotten gains to. BEFORE getting caught by the guardsmen.
In a PnP RPG, there are tons of fascinating role-playing opportunities --- like the double-bluff idea you have there.
And honestly - what shopkeeper commoner would really be interested in sinking thousands of gold into a magical sword? That would be something that only other adventurers or serious collectors would be interested in --- and of course, they'd take whatever measures they could to validate their purchase.
And that could be either tedious, or highly entertaining and an adventure of their own. I mean, here's six quick adventure ideas involving finding a buyer for magic items:
#1 - A variation on your idea... an unscrupulous merchant marks the price up 3x and tries to bill it as something its not --- and pinning the blame on you.
#2 - Buyer is EVIL and uses said magic items for nefarious purposes
#3 - Buyer is insane, with multiple personality disorder. The other personality sees the players as thieves, and tries to kill them.
#4 - An influential cult has determined that said magic item is somehow a holy relic, and that trying to sell it is blasphemy.
#5 - Buyer is actually an organized crime member, and is using the purchase as a way to launder money.
#6 - Buyer pays for the item with counterfeit coins.
I was just reading a Conan story where part of his problem was finding someone to sell his ill-gotten gains to. BEFORE getting caught by the guardsmen.
In a PnP RPG, there are tons of fascinating role-playing opportunities --- like the double-bluff idea you have there.
And honestly - what shopkeeper commoner would really be interested in sinking thousands of gold into a magical sword? That would be something that only other adventurers or serious collectors would be interested in --- and of course, they'd take whatever measures they could to validate their purchase.
And that could be either tedious, or highly entertaining and an adventure of their own. I mean, here's six quick adventure ideas involving finding a buyer for magic items:
#1 - A variation on your idea... an unscrupulous merchant marks the price up 3x and tries to bill it as something its not --- and pinning the blame on you.
#2 - Buyer is EVIL and uses said magic items for nefarious purposes
#3 - Buyer is insane, with multiple personality disorder. The other personality sees the players as thieves, and tries to kill them.
#4 - An influential cult has determined that said magic item is somehow a holy relic, and that trying to sell it is blasphemy.
#5 - Buyer is actually an organized crime member, and is using the purchase as a way to launder money.
#6 - Buyer pays for the item with counterfeit coins.
The local power structure should come into play, too: the Baron might decide that he should have right of first refusal for any magic item sold in the town. The King might forbid the traffic of magic weapons (or restrict their sale among commoners). The Captain of the City Watch might confiscate your items, claiming you were clearly trying to cheat the merchant. Each of these can be a hook for a new adventure as well.
Those are clever ideas for integrating loot into the story line, John!
I'd probably only do something like that if it was an adventure hook. Players hate getting their stuff taken away from 'em.
I'd probably only do something like that if it was an adventure hook. Players hate getting their stuff taken away from 'em.
Oh sure; taking stuff away with no compensation (gold, XP, or story) just annoys players. They hate it even more if they have to admit later that the Baron was *right* to confiscate their items: "Why, no sir, I guess we didn't take into account the recent civil unrest when we flooded the market with cheap Wands of Fireball, and weapons capable of piercing the guards' enchanted armor. Sorry about that."
Of course, my friends usually hated getting morals in the way of their hack-and-slash, and so would probably have taken a "not my problem" attitude, but hey, that's what Geas is for.
Of course, my friends usually hated getting morals in the way of their hack-and-slash, and so would probably have taken a "not my problem" attitude, but hey, that's what Geas is for.
Oh, man. Can you imagine something along those lines in a CRPG where you get emergent gameplay like that? Criminals purchasing your dumped magic items? Guards out-classed on the street?
Could be clever, even if it was hard-coded.
Hmmm.... Frayed Knights 2? :)
Could be clever, even if it was hard-coded.
Hmmm.... Frayed Knights 2? :)
Yeah, that would be a cool CRPG. It might be well-suited to a tactics-style game (Ogre Battle, Final Fantasy Tactics, &c) where it would extend the tactical nature of the game even to inventory management: do you destroy unneeded items (getting nothing), or sell them (getting gold, but risking that they end up in enemy hands?)
Kingdom of Loathing has something a little like that in the war between the hippies and the frat boys. In that case you do quests on behalf of the side you want to win the war: if you do the junkyard quest then your side gets mobile units based on the junked cars. If you do the lighthouse/gunpowder quest, then your side gets bombs. The way I understand it is that doing something in favor of one side is added as a discrete advantage to that side.
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Kingdom of Loathing has something a little like that in the war between the hippies and the frat boys. In that case you do quests on behalf of the side you want to win the war: if you do the junkyard quest then your side gets mobile units based on the junked cars. If you do the lighthouse/gunpowder quest, then your side gets bombs. The way I understand it is that doing something in favor of one side is added as a discrete advantage to that side.
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