Tales of the Rampant Coyote
Adventures in Indie Gaming!


(  RSS Feed! | Games! | Forums! )

Thursday, March 15, 2007
 
Making A Rogue-Friendly RPG Part 1: Rogues Get No Respect!
My favorite class type in RPGs is the Rogue. Call it what you will - the thief, the skill-monkey, the smuggler, whatever. While other players like bringing out characters with supreme martial skill or colossal arcane might to the table, I'm always drawn to the character that uses his wits, cunning, and obscure collection of unique skills to defeat his opposition.

I'm drawn to characters like the Stainless Steel Rat, Miles Vorkosigan, James Bond (in the older movies, or in the new Casino Royale), Robin Hood, Han Solo, Malcom Reynolds, Sherlock Holmes, d'Artagnan, and Indiana Jones. Or the principle characters of the BBC show "Hustle," or the old Mission: Impossible series.

Rogues, all of them. Or at least, they represent the kinds of story and action that a rogue-player would like to emulate in an RPG. Living by wits. Constantly trying to outsmart the opponent. Always thinking one step ahead. Avoiding the fair fight. Defeating the best-laid plans and traps, while entrapping your opponent in your own.

Why Game Designers Hate Rogues (Even If They Love Them)
Unfortunately, in RPGs (especially computer RPGs), designers don't seem to know what to do with the rogue. After all, they are all about designing and balancing rules... and rogues are typically all about breaking the rules (or at least eschewing the orthodox), which screws up a game designer's careful game balance, and often screwing up the best-laid GM plot railroads.

Rogues are troublesome by their very nature.

So most CRPGs that feature rogues just throw a few bones in the rogue's direction. Oh, here are a few traps to disable and some doors to unlock. Otherwise, the rogue is more of a lightweight fighter.

At least one game did it right. The "Thief" series (originally by Looking Glass) embraced the concept of "rogue-ness" (is that a word?). They dropped you into a series of missions where you were outnumbered, outgunned, incapable of sustaining a fair fight with the weakest of opponents, and where the smallest mistake would screw up the entire mission. And then they gave you access to skills and tools to navigate your own way through the game world on your own terms. It felt organic, unscripted. It felt like bring an actual rogue, making up your own rules to turn the odds in your favor. It was awesome.

I'm sure it's a little too much to expect for a more generalized RPG to capture the feel of being a rogue in the same way that a specialized game had done. I keep hoping. But it's so very much easier to deal with a straightforward "brute force" approach to handling the odds.

After all, with the brute-force approach, you can make sure that the player-characters have to be at least THIS TOUGH to defeat the dragon and take his treasure. But the rogue story is always different. It's always about the clever guy who bypasses the super-security systems, or sneaks past the dragon, and takes the treasure without engaging in the fair fight. No RPG scenario designer wants the player to bypass all the carefully laid storyline and chain of adventures, to just poison the "Big Bad" and win the game at level 1.

But that's what a rogue story is all about. It's about David defeating Goliath. Miles Vorkosigan is "just" a hyperactive handicapped washout, and ends up owning a major mercenary fleet and ending an interstellar war through a combination of happenstance and quick thinking. Bilbo Baggins, inexperienced hobbit, follows his instincts and folksy wisdom to save his dwarven companions (repeatedly), possess a major magical artifact and obtain the dragon's hoard. Even Star Wars is something of a rogue story, in which the planet-destroying Death Star is impervious to the strongest military force, but the rebels send tiny, insignificant fighters in through the shields to try and ... "defeat the giant."

You do that in literature and movies, and it's high adventure. You do that in a game, and its cheating or (in an MMO) a bannable exploit.

EverQuest Rogue?
When EverQuest launched in early 1999, I jumped aboard, quickly making a character in my favorite class. Unfortunately, through most of that year, the EverQuest rogue was about the most useless class ever devised. You could tell that the Sony team (them called Verant... formerly Red Eye or Red Orb or something like that) actually had - at some point in development - some kind of plan for the rogue. There were about five pickable locks in the entire world, which rogues would visit from far and wide in order to practice their skill. Just in case SOME DAY it might be useful. And traps! I think there were four detectable traps. They didn't DO anything, but they could be detected.

I think the dev team just ran out of time. Rogues couldn't hide and sneak around at the same time, they would frequently do backstabs for only 1 or 2 points of damage, and would immediately aggro any creature they backstabbed (even those little 1 or 2 hitpoint backstabs), resulting in no more backstabs, and usually an untimely death for the rogue. Oh, yeah --- and the pickpocket ability effectively stole from the final loot for the monster, thus stealing from your party. This basically made a rogue a detriment to any party, so we were the bottom-barrel-scrapings for pick-up groups.

Fortunately, the designers eventually got a clue, and rogues eventually became a pretty solid (if overly combat-heavy) class.

Dungeons & Dragons Online and the Nerf
Dungeons and Dragons online started out better. It has a pretty elaborate trap system in many dungeons. Just like you want a cleric along in an undead-heavy adventure (well, you want a cleric along with you at ANY time, really), you want a rogue along in a trap-heavy dungeon to eliminate the otherwise mandatory attrition caused by nasty blades slicing party members in two, or fountains spitting extra-caustic acid on everyone, or the spikes that suddenly thrust up from the floor to impale people. Nasty stuff. Which rogues live for. If you don't take a rogue with you, you may be able to dodge some of it, but you are just going to have to suck some of it up. Even better, having the rogue disarm traps often nets extra experience points - as does having him (or anyone else with a high Spot skill, but the rogue is most likely to have the highest) find secret doors --- which may also hide bonus treasure.

In general, it's a good game for rogues. Not "Thief" good, but still a fun game for rogues to do stuff nobody else can do. But then came our game Tuesday. Tuesday was a bad rogue night.

First off, there was an "upgrade" to the enhancement system. That is, it's an upgrade for most players. As a rogue who found himself completely incapable of replicating his previous effectiveness with the new system, it was A Nerf. The biggest offender was the skill enhancements. Apparently, when the designers decided that "human versitility" would be a worthy enhancement by giving bonuses to all of the player's skill rolls, they didn't have Human Rogues in mind. Apparently, a character with a LOT of skills who expects to use them all a LOT in combat gets a really huge benefit from that enhancement, whereas most classes might have only two or four skills that they use infrequently at best.

While I did get a little bit more of a range of abilities, it was a pretty clear downgrade. The party was over. Ah, well - I still had pretty maxed out Spot / Search / Disable skills, so I should still do okay. So I got used to being able to disable traps on any roll but a 1. I'd get over it.

No Rogues Allowed In This Dungeon!
Our first expedition of the night was an undead-heavy dungeon that we'd tried before, but cranked up to "Hard" difficulty. Now, I generally hate undead dungeons, because rogue sneak-attack skills are useless against undead. But it always gives the cleric a chance to shine. And sometimes there are traps I can disable.

This dungeon WAS full of traps. Tons. And I couldn't detect (let alone disable, in spite of repeated attempts to search for a control box) a single one. Even after it had gone off on me three times. Some of the traps were impossible to avoid, too. They'd shoot flame or poison or sonic blasts all over the person operating the lever to open the door, or opening up the chest --- every single time.

And either I was nerfed WAY more than I thought I had been, or the designer had seen fit to either make them undetectable and impossible to disarm (or cranked up the difficulty so high that no rogue of the appropriate level range could possibly detect the trap - which amounts to the same thing).

I can see the logic. Kind of. But I'll still call it lazy level design. In order to make this dungeon harder, the designer decided to use traps as a "wandering damage table." It's a simple way to force some attrition on the group to make the dungeon a little more challenging. The problem with this simple plan is, of course, the pesky rogue. The rogue can simply circumvent all that mandatory attrition at little or no risk. Practically automatically. So the dungeon which was of appropriate difficulty for a party with no rogues becomes MUCH easier with a rogue in the group.

The solution? Neutralize the rogue. Ignore his ability to find and disarm the traps. The designer pats himself on the back, checks off his task on the schedule, and moves on to his next job.

Cool. And while you are at it, while don't you make some dungeons where the clerics aren't allowed to heal, the wizards can't cast spells, and the fighters have to fight with both hands tied behind their back! That oughta be fun!

Well, okay, if that was the POINT of the dungeon, it might be fun. Or not - I remember that anti-magic level in Ultima Underworld. I think I quit the game for a month on that level. Ah, well. Anyway - if there's a really good reason for it, and sort of a special challenge situation, that's fine. But undetectable traps aren't unique to this dungeon - it was just more guilty than most. Like the Magical Monster Sensing Doors, it's just some arbitrary element because the dungeon is SUPPOSED to work this way to make it an appropriate challenge level to keep players from racing up to level 10 in a week. Which they can, anyway.

But they don't want rogues breaking the rules. They can't have unorthodox techniques used to bypass challenges!

And so rogues keep getting the short shrift in RPGs, particularly MMOs.

Making A More Rogue-Friendly Game
The complaint is not limited to CRPGs. I regularly see arguments in D20 threads about how useless or useful a rogue is in a game. It depends upon the game system, the game master (or scenario designer), and the player himself.

This entry is already too long (and I'm already half-asleep and not sure I'm making any sense), so I'll have to follow this up soon (tomorrow?) with some concrete advice on how exactly one might go about doing just this.

But the quick-and-dirty of it is the difference between being pro-active and reactive. Most CRPGs give the rogue a reactive role, almost exclusively. The rogues are dependent upon the designer to give them chances to use their special abilities. Effectively waiting for a ball to be deliberately hit their way. Which is why we get annoyed when, as in the example dungeon above, it LOOKS like we're getting some hit our way, but we're not allowed to catch them. It's frustrating.

Ideally, the rogue should be a pro-active role. The opportunities to use his skills should be constant --- but choosing exactly how to approach it and what skills to use should be the trick.

(Vaguely) related yammering:
* When Magic Becomes Mundane In RPGs
* RPG Design: Why Can't I Get Past The Stupid Door?
* Roleplaying and Roleplaying Games
* Designing an RPG Rule System
.

Labels: ,



Did you enjoy this post? Feel free to share it: del.icio.us | Digg it | Furl | reddit | Yahoo MyWeb

Comments:
You touch on a lot of my problems with the concept of game balance in general.

Narratively speaking, why would rogues even take on many of the same quests that paladins and hunters are taking? It makes no sense. Rogues have a very specific skill set and it simply doesn't work to staple those skills onto some other quest.
 
The only Thief game I played was the first one, and it was extraordinary. Very well done. Never once did I feel the urge to wade in a room full of guards swinging. It was so much fun to try to avoid all the guards, and escape when you were seen. The sound effects ("Who's there?"), the light/shadow system, the difference of walking on carpet or stone, etc, made the game really shine.
 
I get a small sense of that with the Splinter Cell games, but it's not as compelling.
 
Personally, this isn't about Rogues - this is about player expectations.

In a multiplayer level map sense, it's either ALL about the Rogue, or NEVER about the Rogue. Do I add a trap here or not?

From a D&DO/NWN sense, traps just SUCK. What happened to the old Grimtooth's Traps where you had a chance of taking out the ENTIRE party? It's just better to use your warrior to run and trip them all, and have the cleric heal if necessary ("Ogg the Caveman Thief" method of trap detection).

Here's what kills me: if you design a level with too many mooks, the fighters and squishies get angry coz it's too hard. Too few, and the Rogue whines "It's a boring map."

Plus - why can't a warrior walk silently if he's NOT in armor? Why do mages make a lot of noise when walking (they're squishies, dammit)? Don't tell me that it's "training" - it's common sense.

My proposal (which you're all waiting for) is to develop a game where the player's EXPECTATION is set upfront: the warrior has to be prepared to drop the armor and NOT kill things. The combat and magic system needs to allow for silence and subdue. If a mage can cast invisibility, how does one un-invisibility them?

And when the marketing department whines because the game isn't going to be a mass market success, tell them to learn to market a game with higher player expectations.
 
@Corvus: Why does the rogue set on the same quest as the paladin?

Great question. I wish more games would answer it. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to come up with some kind of rationale. And it could make for a good adventure (for reading or playing). But instead we tend to get a lowest-common-denominator generic prefab dungeon. Yawn.

@Bob: LOL, we also call that the "HTD" system... "Halfling Trap Detector". Roll the halfling across the floor, see if he sets off any traps.

That's also a popular use of summoned monsters in D&D. Which is actually a sensible approach for me - to a degree. You can either bring a rogue with you, or spend a bunch of your precious spells to summon fuzzies to trigger the traps for you. Though in DDO, the traps are more often than not repeating, so setting them off early only helps you know where they are.

Incidentally, I'm a big fan of Grimtooth's traps (at least the less silly ones, but those can be fun too), and the D20 "Traps and Treachery" books. Fun stuff.

But I think the key isn't "more traps for rogues." Because while the rogue is disarming the trap, everyone else is sitting around and waiting. That's not fun. Overdoing that would spoil the fun for everyone.
 
you think thieves have it bad? My frustration is *bards*. One of these days I'm going to design an RPG with a bard PC to explain once and for all why it deserves to be a separate archetype...

First, bards should have a massive advantage in the money department when in a town. Obviously thieves can make good money in town if they can manage not to get CAUGHT doing so, but the others are generally stuck accepting quests, often piddly ones. A bard can busk. Instant source of cash, not to mention a good context to drop rumors into the PC's hands.

Second, diplomacy class. If designers bothered implementing diplomacy and conversations beyond 'Of course I will serve the good and true' or 'I stab him and take his stuff', having a good talker around would be useful. And then there's rabble-rousing...

Third, bards are tricksters. They have a smattering of all sorts of skills. A little fighting, a little magic, a little thieving, not enough to be really useful in any of these roles. Even more so than the standard thief, a bard should be using her wits to find a clever plan to get out of trouble. Got an enemy you can't fight? LEAD THEM ONTO ANOTHER ENEMY! Let them kill each other, while you manage a daring escape! It'll make a great story - and *that* is what, to me, is a key feature of a Bard archetype. 'How I Got Away' should always be almost too ludicrous to be true - and telling that story will earn you another free meal, or the confidence of the governor's daughter.

As I recall, D&DOnline, and possibly 3dEd in general, have turned bards into some sort of weird buffbot. Possibly playable, but taking all the fun out of it. ISTR that the NWN sites did surveys and showed that Bard was the least popular player class... designers just don't seem to understand what they're for.

Or maybe I'm the only one who wants to go off in search of adventure with little more than a song and my wits to protect me?
 
If you're looking for an old-school game that's a little more friendly to rogue-style play, try Dark Disciples:

http://www.users.bigpond.com/lafebre/index.htm

It's been a while since I played it, but I recall it allowing you a fair amount of flexability in dealing with obstacles. Plus, it completely avoids the "save the world" plot.
 
@gegi: I usually think of the bard as being within the "rogue" archetype. Like a smuggler or "dungeon handyman," the bard has a unique set of skills that give him a certain flavor, but the style of character sounds like a rogue to me.

But yeah. Since The Bard's Tale, not many fantasy RPGs have tried to do the bard justice.

@dgm: I haven't tried it. But I downloaded it tonight!
 
If you ask me, it shouldn't be hard finding a way to make rogues useful everywhere rather than just where the designer wanted to throw it in. In fact, I'm pretty sure you have to be TRYING to to not find a way. You just have to take at least a quarter of a step away from standard, 100% accurate DnD porting, and even then you can do it with modifications of the DnD rules.

For instance, here's two ideas I just got off the top of my head. These two things alone would be enough to make rogues in any game useful in a proactive manner:

Setting trap: Disarming is boring, impossible to balance for both with and without rogue and cheap. But let the rogue MAKE traps. If you ask me it shouldn't even require expendable items, though it may have to have a moderate (read: affordable to use on a regular basis) to keep from always spamming them (plus most designers make you buy ARROWS). Trap setting is much more fun, and it's inherently easy to balance--make the trap strong but not strong enough to kill the big boss in one hit, and limit them to one live trap per rogue at a time with significant setup time on making a new one (bonus points if it's still feasible to set up and use a second one midfight with proper party strategy). Thus you can afford to make any enemy that moves capable of being fully effected and not arbitrarily screw rogues. Even undead. This already happens in some games such as Guild Wars, so big game designers have no excuse.

Flanking: Give any rogue who is flanking a monster (defined as having an ally hitting the same guy in melee from an angel at least 135 degrees from the rogue) the same bonus you give a rogue making a sneak attack (or a portion of it if needed for balance). Yes, that does mean flanking is more powerful overall than sneak attacks; flanking IS a sneak attack when you apply logic, much more so than any "stealth" mechanic will allow; if your game is party-based enough that being unable to solo stuff isn't a big deal I suggest then removing the conventional sneak attack entirely. I firmly believe sneak attack in pen and paper DnD existed entirely to mirror this effect, so it just makes sense that now that you can do it more logically you should. Even when used against skeletons this should apply enough of a tohit bonus to make a flanking rogue as strong as a fighter, and he should deal MORE damage than a fighter against normal foes. To counter this, rogues obviously get mediocre armor and monsters being flanked will almost always switch to attacking the rogue after a few seconds until he flees.

Do this alone (along with a few traditional rogue abilities like lockpicking and trap finding) and you will have a proactive, useful and versatile rogue who is fun and useful and balanced even when the dungeon designer forgets to accomodate for him.
 
Although I realize this isn't the sort of thing you're talking about, try this place for some REAL rogue-ish rule exploitation in classic games: www.it-he.com

Just don't eat or drink anything while you're reading. I don't want anybody to choke to death while laughing. :)

@Coyote: Let me know how Dark Disciples goes for you. :)
 
Sorry, let me try that link again:

www.it-he.com

How does one make a clickable link here?
 
@DGM: You surround it by the HTML tag.

(a href="blahblahblah")link name(/a)

Substitute carrots ( <> ) for the parens up there.
 
Thanks.

Is there a way these comments can be viewed by date (or all in one place) instead of by blog entry? I've been reading some of your older stuff and was wondering if there's any point on commenting on an entry that's not near the top of the front page.
 
I get a notification, so I'll see the comment, and often respond. But I don't know if anyone else will. I don't know of any options for readers to check them out by date, though.

I guess I should bite the bullet and put up forums one of these days, huh?
 
I certainly wouldn't mind. I'm working on my own game - my first - and the more experienced developers I can pester for help, the better. :)
 
Speaking of the comment dates, why is it that the comments have timestamps showing the time of day they were posted but not the date? Or am I missing something?
 
You know, those bugged me too, but until you mentioned something, I never took the time out to hunt 'em down and fix 'em.

Better now. Thanks!
 
Why do rogues set out on the same quest as a paladin?

Simple, with flanking allowing you to do double damage (or 1.5 or something), the Paladin serves as an adequate destraction.

For a good game for Rogues, please play System Shock.
 
Sure, that's a good mechanical reason for why rogues and paladins make good company. Done it myself a few times... :)

Actually, I was in an "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft" game where - strangely enough - my rogue got along famously with the paladin. We had a common goal - to put an end to the evil of Ravenloft. Maybe the rationale behind it might not have been quite the same... for the paladin, the end was the quest in and of itself, while for the rogue it was simply a means to an end.

But the paladin was nicely forward-thinking (Lawful Good doesn't necessarily mean playing Miko Miyazaki from Order of the Stick), and while she wouldn't put up with the rogue performing any "evil," she was very tolerant of ... unorthadox approaches to resolving challenges.

My favorite trick was using the behavior and slow movement rate of a "Chain Golem" to destroy an enchanted portrait.
 
@brickamn

gee, i thought that a flank allowed sneak attacks under standard DND rules. if not, it should.

personally, i think rouges are kinda cool. and yes, paladins don't have to be "lawful stupid" they can't associate with evil people, but they can associate with people who do things against the paladin code.
 
Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link



<< Home

Powered by Blogger