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Sunday, August 27, 2006
Innovation in RPGs?
We've had some incredible advances in graphics quality in computer roleplaying games over the last dozen years or so. Compare the quality of the first "real" 3D RPG - Ultima Underworld - with Oblivion, of course, and it's nothing short of stunning.
As far as storyline and setting are concerned, there has been some progress on that front as well, moving away from the overused (but still better-selling) faux Medieval European setting or a no-brainer license (like Star Wars) into a few other genres. It seems to be a dangerous action in terms of sales, unfortunately. Planescape: Torment (which I have yet to play - I'm on of the reasons it did poorly I guess) is reported to have a really astonishingly cool storyline and bizarre, unique setting. Jade Empire takes place in an Asian setting. Arcanum was a "steampunk" style game. And of course, there's the Fallout series. And I might as well note the indie effort, "The Omega Syndrome." Also on the indie front, Jeff Vogel recently wrote an article about his attempt to come up with an innovative setting - which didn't go so well (though I think Geneforge was pretty different, too). Daring to go beyond traditional dragons, orcs, knights, and wizards is happening --- if infrequently.
But how about good, solid innovation in gameplay? I'm not talking cute button-mashing tricks getting added to try and dress up combat. I'm talking changes to the game that help take the game beyond the "fight and loot to get more powerful so you can fight and loot bigger stuff" treadmill of play that characterizes RPGs today. While I'm narrowing focus, I'll also narrow it to just single-player RPGs. Massively Multiplayer RPGs are of course taking some strides to broaden the treadmill experience, but that's mainly because the treadmill is a hundred times worse in your average MMORPG.
I'm talking the kinds of things Scorpia was lamenting in her recent editorial, "Old Wine In New Bottles."
Here are some examples of the kind of "gameplay depth"-increasing innovations that we've seen in the past, but which we've rarely seen repeated in a genre which really seems ripe for it:
Ultima IV - The Quest of the Avatar: Okay. In this game, many of your actions had the usual immediate ramifications that you've seen in many games prior and since. However, besides simply questing to amass cash and power, the end-game also required you to master virtues. These virtues were often at odds with the quickest path to power (and at odds with each other). This was a relatively simple system: Steal, and you lost honesty - but of course, you gained wealth. Brag, and you lost humility. Lie, and you lost honesty. Ah, but what if avoiding bragging required you to lie? One of the virtues was sacrifice - which was very much at odds with the accumulation of greatness that most games rely upon.
Ultima VI - The False Prophet: This game (and Ultima 7) introduced the notorious "baking bread" mechanic, which have now evolved into gigantic crafting systems in massively multiplayer games. The idea was to allow the player to become involved in the economy of the game world through the creation of goods. Some players loved it, some (mostly) ignored it. I confess, I fell into the latter camp most of the time, though it was an interesting diversion.
Ultima Underworld: This game featured a barter system that was simple yet fascinating. Different characters at least seemed to value items differently. One of the puzzles involved a man who was afraid of the dark. His other items - including a key quest element - were of far less value than light sources. A little bit of wheeling and dealing could truly improve your lot in this dungeon, without combat. I've yet to see anything quite like this in 15 years.
Wizardry 7 - Crusaders of the Dark Savant: This game had several NPC
groups racing for the same ultimate prize as your own party. While it was somewhat clumsily realized, it was a fascinating element (and was even made a key marketing point). You might have to negotiate with these parties to trade prizes, acquire key information, etc. I don't think you could lose to these other parties (someone correct me if I'm wrong - I didn't finish the game), but IIRC you might find that a quest item at the end of a dungeon had already been looted by another party.
Suikoden: The most modern mainstream release I can think of, this game had a large component involving creating and improving your castle headquarters, and amassing an army to win the war that engulfed the game world. The thing that made it interesting was that few of these additions were really mandatory. I don't remember if any of your allies were mutually exclusive or not - those would certainly make the choices more interesting.
Cute Knight: An indie offering, combining "sim" style play and a limited adventuring career with an old-fashioned, "Wizardry"-style dungeon romp and lots of replayability.
Is there anything like this in more modern games? All of these examples are more than a decade old. The only one that springs to mind (and granted, I haven't played every release that's come out on console and PC in this time) is the Vampire: The Masquerade titles - the Humanity index, and the Masquerade index in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. But these were cribbed from the pen & paper license, so the innovation was from that side of the fence.
What else have we got? What am I missing? Anything within the last decade or so?
Labels: Game Design, retro, Roleplaying Games
- posted by The Rampant Coyote @ 11:33 PM (Permalink)
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I'd like to nominate A-Sharp's King of Dragon Pass for gameplay innovation. This wouldn't count as a mainstream game, quite, and must be seven or so years old now - but it was innovative. Still is.
The setting is Glorantha... but you were asking for gameplay innovations, and this has that.
The focus of the game is the clan - some several hundred men, women, and children. Among them, there would be some two to three dozen nobles, who live, feud, marry, war, harvest, and generally live their lives as Iron Age clansmen might. Some of these nobles you appoint to the council running the clan, or dispatch to conduct the clan's business. From a gameplay perspective, there's simulation in running the tribe, and role-playing as you guide the various nobles to achieve a great destiny for the clan.
It is an utterly marvelous game that has aged very, very, well - but it never sold very well. The company that made it - A-Sharp - makes its living with application software, like Stardock. Unlike Stardock, they never sold enough games to make this a recurring sideline.
Cute Knight follows directly in the footsteps of the Princess Maker series, of which there have been nearly a half-dozen - none in English though, but for an orphaned translation of the first, which you can find if you poke around.
Also - Planescape:Torment is one of a handful of games I'll pull off the shelf every year or so. Take a look at KoDP and PS:T - write it off as research, even. Neither of them sold well; both of them are superlatively good games. There's an opening there for better marketing, or a less alien setting. At least I hope so - more games like them will have to come from somewhere.
Another innovative RPG would be the Guild - social climbing in the 1600s. It's not as dear to my heart as some others, but it certainly isn't the usual fare.
The setting is Glorantha... but you were asking for gameplay innovations, and this has that.
The focus of the game is the clan - some several hundred men, women, and children. Among them, there would be some two to three dozen nobles, who live, feud, marry, war, harvest, and generally live their lives as Iron Age clansmen might. Some of these nobles you appoint to the council running the clan, or dispatch to conduct the clan's business. From a gameplay perspective, there's simulation in running the tribe, and role-playing as you guide the various nobles to achieve a great destiny for the clan.
It is an utterly marvelous game that has aged very, very, well - but it never sold very well. The company that made it - A-Sharp - makes its living with application software, like Stardock. Unlike Stardock, they never sold enough games to make this a recurring sideline.
Cute Knight follows directly in the footsteps of the Princess Maker series, of which there have been nearly a half-dozen - none in English though, but for an orphaned translation of the first, which you can find if you poke around.
Also - Planescape:Torment is one of a handful of games I'll pull off the shelf every year or so. Take a look at KoDP and PS:T - write it off as research, even. Neither of them sold well; both of them are superlatively good games. There's an opening there for better marketing, or a less alien setting. At least I hope so - more games like them will have to come from somewhere.
Another innovative RPG would be the Guild - social climbing in the 1600s. It's not as dear to my heart as some others, but it certainly isn't the usual fare.
# posted by 
: August 28, 2006 3:48 AM
: August 28, 2006 3:48 AM
In Suikoden you were able to recruit all somethingty-something allies, so there was no pick-and-choose strategy.
An interesting little game, but not as much as its fan base and eBay prices would lead you to believe, though.
An interesting little game, but not as much as its fan base and eBay prices would lead you to believe, though.
There were some mutually exclusive choices in Suikoden, but usually the choice didn't matter much in terms of gameplay mechanics, i.e. you're usually picking one fighter over another, and with 108 to choose from, it's pretty insignificant, usually coming down to just personal taste.
This has changed in the later games, though. In later games of the series, some choices may mean you can't recruit some other characters down the line.
This has changed in the later games, though. In later games of the series, some choices may mean you can't recruit some other characters down the line.
Hey, I'm all about non-mainstream games here :) Or at least, I'm trying to be. I admit, though, I had heard the name, "King of Dragon Pass" before, I'd never played it. I was checking out it's wikipedia entry, and while it's classification as an RPG is questionable (it sounds like more of a strategy game with RPG elements), it certainly sounds nice & different. And it was an IGF winner!
Does anyone know if it still work under Windows XP?
I didn't think Princess Maker had quite the RPG side to it as Cute Knight - though I haven't played PM (or the sequel... wasn't there a Princess Maker 2?). I thought it was the combination that was fairly new, but I could be wrong.
I have never heard of "The Guild." Do you have more information on it?
Does anyone know if it still work under Windows XP?
I didn't think Princess Maker had quite the RPG side to it as Cute Knight - though I haven't played PM (or the sequel... wasn't there a Princess Maker 2?). I thought it was the combination that was fairly new, but I could be wrong.
I have never heard of "The Guild." Do you have more information on it?
Sometimes you are talking about innovative in-game elements (enemy parties to compete with) and some are innovative gameplay (building up a castle). Does that make sense? I do think of those as different. I.e. in Wizardry (never played it, I am assuming), you play it in totally standard RPG ways, you just happen to encounter this new thing (same with the UU old man). On Suidoken, you're talking about actually playing in a different way.
In the latter vein, I might make the surprising recommendation of Guild Wars. You'd think it's real standard MMO, but it's not at all. The gameplay is very new - a mix of tactical real-time action (your basic MMO) with Magic: The Gathering 'deck building' of sorts.
Oh, another one for new gameplay - Legend Of Legaia. It's your usual console RPG with action bars filling up and all, but then instead of choosing "Attack", you stack up a series of different attacks into a combo. You have a certain length of box to fill with attacks, and certain combinations make super attacks (I think the box gets smaller as you get tired or something, I forget). Along those lines, there have actually been a lot of console RPGs with unique elements to battle, like those ones with spinny things you have to click at the right time and stuff (Breath Of Fire has that, I think).
I think Diablo also brought out something new in this regard - the real melding of RPG and action (or maybe RTS). Before that, I think you just had action games with little RPG elements (Zelda) or RPGs with little action elements (speaking of Japanese settings, Deathlord on the Apple II had some amusing action elements in the training of your stats).
Oh, and Diablo II brought indescribable awesomeness.
In the latter vein, I might make the surprising recommendation of Guild Wars. You'd think it's real standard MMO, but it's not at all. The gameplay is very new - a mix of tactical real-time action (your basic MMO) with Magic: The Gathering 'deck building' of sorts.
Oh, another one for new gameplay - Legend Of Legaia. It's your usual console RPG with action bars filling up and all, but then instead of choosing "Attack", you stack up a series of different attacks into a combo. You have a certain length of box to fill with attacks, and certain combinations make super attacks (I think the box gets smaller as you get tired or something, I forget). Along those lines, there have actually been a lot of console RPGs with unique elements to battle, like those ones with spinny things you have to click at the right time and stuff (Breath Of Fire has that, I think).
I think Diablo also brought out something new in this regard - the real melding of RPG and action (or maybe RTS). Before that, I think you just had action games with little RPG elements (Zelda) or RPGs with little action elements (speaking of Japanese settings, Deathlord on the Apple II had some amusing action elements in the training of your stats).
Oh, and Diablo II brought indescribable awesomeness.
Thanks for the clarification on Suikoden and the sequels.
Suikoden was actually my first exposure to 'console-style' RPGs - I was a PC gamer pretty much exclusively from the end of the Atari 2600 era until the Playstation Era, so I missed some of the gems of the late 80's and early 90's (though I get to go back and play them now, which is a lot of fun!)
Coming in cold from playing games like Eye of the Beholder, Ultima 7, Daggerfall, and the like to playing Suikoden was quite a departure, but I was delighted. I tried another lesser-known Japanese RPG right after Suikoden, and wasn't nearly as impressed. Considering I never finished it (it was rented) and can't even remember it's name, I guess it's safe to call it "forgettable."
Then Final Fantasy 7 was released. And I was blown away. Sadly, the later FF offerings weren't quite as thrilling (but I did have fun playing them).
Suikoden was actually my first exposure to 'console-style' RPGs - I was a PC gamer pretty much exclusively from the end of the Atari 2600 era until the Playstation Era, so I missed some of the gems of the late 80's and early 90's (though I get to go back and play them now, which is a lot of fun!)
Coming in cold from playing games like Eye of the Beholder, Ultima 7, Daggerfall, and the like to playing Suikoden was quite a departure, but I was delighted. I tried another lesser-known Japanese RPG right after Suikoden, and wasn't nearly as impressed. Considering I never finished it (it was rented) and can't even remember it's name, I guess it's safe to call it "forgettable."
Then Final Fantasy 7 was released. And I was blown away. Sadly, the later FF offerings weren't quite as thrilling (but I did have fun playing them).
How about the Sims? The Sims relies HEAVILY on many of the core mechanics of traditional RPGs but it switches up the themes and the goals of the game dramatically.
Disgaea on the PS2 is also a great tactical RPG. There is a main quest which you take your party members on, but you can also go into a dungeon contained *within* each of your party members to level up that character and collect items for them (of course you have to do it without the party member that you are inside).
Disgaea on the PS2 is also a great tactical RPG. There is a main quest which you take your party members on, but you can also go into a dungeon contained *within* each of your party members to level up that character and collect items for them (of course you have to do it without the party member that you are inside).
Cute Knight is basically Princess Maker clone. You can find Princess Maker 2 at Home of the Underdogs.
Just like Omega Syndrome isn't quite up to the standards of Fallout, Cute Knight isn't quite Princess Maker 2, but it does do some things differently. The adventure portion of PM2 is more like a traditional SNES console RPG than a first person RPG, but looking at the success of Aveyond it might have been a better idea if it was more like PM2.
Progress Quest is interesting, although its not really a game. At the experimental workshop at GDC there was this game called Hunter RPG that was like interactive progress quest. No demo or game available yet, the only info available is this doc www.experimental-gameplay.org/2006/Hunter%20RPG%20Concept.doc
A lot of people are into Dwarf Fortress, a roguelike\strategy\city building RPG. It has tons of detail and seems really complex, but I had a lot of trouble getting into it because of the UI.
Just like Omega Syndrome isn't quite up to the standards of Fallout, Cute Knight isn't quite Princess Maker 2, but it does do some things differently. The adventure portion of PM2 is more like a traditional SNES console RPG than a first person RPG, but looking at the success of Aveyond it might have been a better idea if it was more like PM2.
Progress Quest is interesting, although its not really a game. At the experimental workshop at GDC there was this game called Hunter RPG that was like interactive progress quest. No demo or game available yet, the only info available is this doc www.experimental-gameplay.org/2006/Hunter%20RPG%20Concept.doc
A lot of people are into Dwarf Fortress, a roguelike\strategy\city building RPG. It has tons of detail and seems really complex, but I had a lot of trouble getting into it because of the UI.
I never even heard of Disgea, so I will have to look that one up.
The link to Dwarf Fortress was wrong, but I found the actual link here. It looks interesting, but it really needs a cleaner UI and a graphical client :) I actually had what I thought was a gigantic (nowadays it seems less so) persistant-world project many, many winters ago (back when requiring an entire floppy disc to store the world state sounded like a big deal). While it sounds cool, the trick is actually making it fun.
This is hardly an insurmountable problem - it's just the (usually abortive) efforts I've seen haven't worked very well, because the developer focuses too much on the "simulation" side of thing and simply neglects the "gameplay" side.
Andy - I agree with you 100% about the Sims. I'd love to see a more "organic" RPG like that materialize. I think mainstream developers are terrified by the prospect because of the testing issues it would bring up. And I expect indies suffer the same fear, but some of us tend to be crazy enough not to worry about it. We'd just (maybe) have to get away f rom the idea of using an RPG to tell a story, and instead allow the player to make their own stories (a la The Sims).
The link to Dwarf Fortress was wrong, but I found the actual link here. It looks interesting, but it really needs a cleaner UI and a graphical client :) I actually had what I thought was a gigantic (nowadays it seems less so) persistant-world project many, many winters ago (back when requiring an entire floppy disc to store the world state sounded like a big deal). While it sounds cool, the trick is actually making it fun.
This is hardly an insurmountable problem - it's just the (usually abortive) efforts I've seen haven't worked very well, because the developer focuses too much on the "simulation" side of thing and simply neglects the "gameplay" side.
Andy - I agree with you 100% about the Sims. I'd love to see a more "organic" RPG like that materialize. I think mainstream developers are terrified by the prospect because of the testing issues it would bring up. And I expect indies suffer the same fear, but some of us tend to be crazy enough not to worry about it. We'd just (maybe) have to get away f rom the idea of using an RPG to tell a story, and instead allow the player to make their own stories (a la The Sims).
There were other problems with the games you mentioned that weren't setting related..
Planescape - JRPG style item upgrades. One item or progression of items for each character. Basically, no item game. Not really a traditional rpg.
Jade Empire - Crappy pseudo-rt combat system.
Arcanum - Ye Gods this was a horrible game. The setting was the only good thing about it.
Fallouts - they did quite well for RPGs.
Planescape - JRPG style item upgrades. One item or progression of items for each character. Basically, no item game. Not really a traditional rpg.
Jade Empire - Crappy pseudo-rt combat system.
Arcanum - Ye Gods this was a horrible game. The setting was the only good thing about it.
Fallouts - they did quite well for RPGs.
Try fighting a battle in KoDP and you'll see why I wouldn't call it a strategy game. :) You can set up the overall situation, but most battles are heavily influenced by one of your nobles distinguishing themselves with some heroic feat or other - or failing to do so, of course.
The game also auto-generates sagas as you play, giving the feel of an oral history of the happenings in the game.
There's resource management in it, but it's more of a party-based RPG to my eye - you groom candidates for roles, and attempt to increase their skills without getting them killed, but when one dies, you can turn to another. It absolutely still works on Windows XP, and I still play it. And though I think I've seen everything in it, it still surprises me sometimes.
There have been a number of attempts to vary the attack system in an otherwise standard RPG. The Shadow Heart games use a rhythmic button press system. Xenogears had a nice combo system - various attacks entered fighting-game-style in the correct order would trigger a combo. Baten Kaitos went with a card-based combat system.
Disgaea is a representative of a whole TRPG genre that's fairly big in Japan, but not so much outside. It had too much grinding for my taste, but had a fun - and funny - storyline. Also it's one of the few games to be competently dubbed.
The Guild is here:
http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/561415.asp?q=guild
there's a sequel in the works, too.
Planescape had no item game? The Nameless One had a huge range of options on everything... and what about the tattoos?
The game also auto-generates sagas as you play, giving the feel of an oral history of the happenings in the game.
There's resource management in it, but it's more of a party-based RPG to my eye - you groom candidates for roles, and attempt to increase their skills without getting them killed, but when one dies, you can turn to another. It absolutely still works on Windows XP, and I still play it. And though I think I've seen everything in it, it still surprises me sometimes.
There have been a number of attempts to vary the attack system in an otherwise standard RPG. The Shadow Heart games use a rhythmic button press system. Xenogears had a nice combo system - various attacks entered fighting-game-style in the correct order would trigger a combo. Baten Kaitos went with a card-based combat system.
Disgaea is a representative of a whole TRPG genre that's fairly big in Japan, but not so much outside. It had too much grinding for my taste, but had a fun - and funny - storyline. Also it's one of the few games to be competently dubbed.
The Guild is here:
http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/561415.asp?q=guild
there's a sequel in the works, too.
Planescape had no item game? The Nameless One had a huge range of options on everything... and what about the tattoos?
# posted by : August 28, 2006 7:03 PM
: August 28, 2006 7:03 PM
I'm an RPG fanatic, but over the last few years I have backed away from the PC RPG market because everything that has been released has been more and more of the same damn thing.
The last great CRPG that I've played was Baldur's Gate II. I didn't really like Neverwinter Nights a whole lot.
The character creation system in Arcanum was interesting, with the ability to put points in any skill you want and finding trainers to teach you the next level of the skills (Apprentice, Journeyman, Expert). The whole dynamic of magic vs technology was also cool.
Perhaps THE MOST robust character creation and combat systems that I've ever stumbled across resides in a custom built MUD called Legends of Karinth -- www.karinth.com. With everything from combat stances and styles to the ability to make your own spells, this game rules. It is an entirely skill based game. No classes. You can train in any skill you desire. You can establish organizations and trade routes. Check out the site for info. Of course, people used to playing games with graphics will probably not be convinced to try it. But I highly recommend it.
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The last great CRPG that I've played was Baldur's Gate II. I didn't really like Neverwinter Nights a whole lot.
The character creation system in Arcanum was interesting, with the ability to put points in any skill you want and finding trainers to teach you the next level of the skills (Apprentice, Journeyman, Expert). The whole dynamic of magic vs technology was also cool.
Perhaps THE MOST robust character creation and combat systems that I've ever stumbled across resides in a custom built MUD called Legends of Karinth -- www.karinth.com. With everything from combat stances and styles to the ability to make your own spells, this game rules. It is an entirely skill based game. No classes. You can train in any skill you desire. You can establish organizations and trade routes. Check out the site for info. Of course, people used to playing games with graphics will probably not be convinced to try it. But I highly recommend it.
# posted by : August 29, 2006 7:48 AM
: August 29, 2006 7:48 AMLinks to this post:
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